Win a pair of Harbeth M40.1 speakers - easy!

[DodgyConnection]

Alan Shaw issues a challenge...

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/s...sons%29/page2&

Pink Fish members get frothy!

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/s...d.php?t=117491

[Gary.M]

Alan may well not be hearing the differences.

A colleague in the USA believes that Harbeths, musical though they are, have insufficient resolution to discern differences in the electronics.

By the way the component and topology choices available to amplifier designers are not restricted enough to enforce a rigid one size fits all design regime. There is plenty of room to innovate and influence the sonic result.



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[DodgyConnection]

Yes - I just can't see where he is coming from - unless he means you can't hear the difference between similar designs.

I would love to see/hear someone give it a go - but the way the test is set up it seems just down to luck and averages.

[Michael Wong]

Alan may well not be hearing the differences.

A colleague in the USA believes that Harbeths, musical though they are, have insufficient resolution to discern differences in the electronics.

Yep.

Very nice sounding but after a while everything sounds nice.

[Owen Young]

Yep.

Very nice sounding but after a while everything sounds nice.

Oooee, you'd better believe it, coming from a (ex) Magnepan owner

[Antipodes]

Having read the mainly pathetic attempts of professional reviewers to compare computer audio products, and having spent a lot of time on that area myself recently, I suspect it is a lot about knowing what to listen for.

It is all about us enjoying the music more, right? But it is useful if we can gauge this by listening in small bursts to rule out some gear, rather than spending two weeks with everything out there one by one.

Perhaps if you spend your time listening for differences in transducers this doesn't give you the listening skills needed to distinguish between amplifiers.

Certainly it has seemed to me recently that few have developed any useful ability to hear the differences between digital stages. Which isn't to say you won't notice differences when you trying living with one, just that it takes a certain skill to be developed to listen to something for a few seconds/minutes and recognise the flaws that will be a problem over time.

[DodgyConnection]

There are some that say you should never A-B-A-B gear in short bursts but rather spend longer times with each piece. However I find that my gut feeling on hearing something I like or dislike within a few minutes is rarely changed over time - modified maybe, but completely changed, not really.

It's like the debate on whether there is 'burn in' of components or the brain becomes used to the new sonic signature - it's a very subjective thing. But for me, while after a length of time with a component the brain may average out its new sound, the flaws I first hear remain with me.

[Owen Young]

Hi Mark,
Do you think that listening technique/s should be different, when auditioning to computer based or digital sources? (As opposed to traditional analoque based sources?)

And... I've always felt that short listening sessions can be misleading. Firstly, immediately previous experience is inevitably a comparative framework of course & for myself at least, ear-brain memory is not entirely objective & I need some time duration to resolve or balance pros & cons & the 'personality' of any new device. Enough time perhaps to clear/refresh psychoacoustic memory.

Having read the mainly pathetic attempts of professional reviewers to compare computer audio products, and having spent a lot of time on that area myself recently, I suspect it is a lot about knowing what to listen for.

It is all about us enjoying the music more, right? But it is useful if we can gauge this by listening in small bursts to rule out some gear, rather than spending two weeks with everything out there one by one.

Perhaps if you spend your time listening for differences in transducers this doesn't give you the listening skills needed to distinguish between amplifiers.

Certainly it has seemed to me recently that few have developed any useful ability to hear the differences between digital stages. Which isn't to say you won't notice differences when you trying living with one, just that it takes a certain skill to be developed to listen to something for a few seconds/minutes and recognise the flaws that will be a problem over time.

[neil]

A colleague in the USA believes that Harbeths, musical though they are, have insufficient resolution to discern differences in the electronics.

I have to disagree with this. I use Harbeths and can easily hear the differences with different electronics!

[Antipodes]

Hi Mark,
Do you think that listening technique/s should be different, when auditioning to computer based or digital sources? (As opposed to traditional analoque based sources?)

And... I've always felt that short listening sessions can be misleading. Firstly, immediately previous experience is inevitably a comparative framework of course & for myself at least, ear-brain memory is not entirely objective & I need some time duration to resolve or balance pros & cons & the 'personality' of any new device. Enough time perhaps to clear/refresh psychoacoustic memory.

Hi Owen. Not so much different tests but you are listening for different things. A digital source that is better will appear to have a lot cleaner treble that allows you to listen much further into the textures of high frequency instruments. Poor digital may be interpreted incorrectly as more transient snap or 'detail' if you don't listen to and for the right things, but what is really happening is the phase is screwed up and the brain hears the treble as a spit, not the natural harmonics of a treble instrument. With good digital bass will be tighter, more propulsive and in time with everything else. Bass may be bigger with poor digital but looser in all respects. Mids can somethimes be preferred with a bit of jitter, paradoxically, because some forms of jitter make the mids darker, which may be attractive in some systems. So I find it easier to tell by listening to the extremes. The other big thing to listen for with digital is for a lower noise floor and all that goes with that, such as accurate soundstage dimensions. Some people find the idea of a lower noise floor a little hard to listen for and others find it screamingly obvious within moments.

[Antipodes]

There are some that say you should never A-B-A-B gear in short bursts but rather spend longer times with each piece. However I find that my gut feeling on hearing something I like or dislike within a few minutes is rarely changed over time - modified maybe, but completely changed, not really.

I can totally relate to what you say there Dodgy, but come up with slightly different conclusions. When placed under the pressure of A and B played randomly and you are being challenged to recognise which is which the ear/brain can get confused, and this is because the ear/brain process is active, not passive. But when you just ask yourself do you like this, then the answer is often immediately obvious, as you say. I see those two tests are very different from each other, even though they are both of short duration.

[Antipodes]

I have to disagree with this. I use Harbeths and can easily hear the differences with different electronics!

I remember seeing that same comment being posted about Harbeths and just thought it was someone being bitchy. Being bitchy is something I have to admit to really enjoying from time to time, so I don't mean that negatively.

My personal audio philosophy is that almost everything seems to make a difference, and I believe that we are all capable of hearing differences. The issue is whether the difference matters to you, which is a personal decision that should not and need not be imposed on anyone else.

[AntonyG]

My personal audio philosophy is that almost everything seems to make a difference, and I believe that we are all capable of hearing differences. The issue is whether the difference matters to you, which is a personal decision that should not and need not be imposed on anyone else.

Amen!!!

[Gary.M]

My personal audio philosophy is that almost everything seems to make a difference, and I believe that we are all capable of hearing differences. The issue is whether the difference matters to you, which is a personal decision that should not and need not be imposed on anyone else.

And Amen from me as well. This is fundamental to our pursuit and is why our industry exists. If it was as simple and objective as some suggest the industry would have been owned by the large Asian brands many years ago.

[Willie]

You have to admire a manufacturer who is prepared to stand behind his products to this degree. I have never listened to Harbeth speakers but from what I read they are a easy load for an amp. Given that any respectable amp has a flat frequency responce and sufficent power to deliver peaks without clipping, etc. It will be interesting to see if anyone takes his challenge.

Of course some speakers that are differcult loads do perform better with higher wattage amps. My brothers B&W 802Ds are a case in point. I have heard them with 40 watt valve amps and they sounded anemic. He ended up using 200watt ss amp.