Crikey Dick, A Concrete Floor?

[mycenius]

On a vaguely related note to Bevan's post about his Arcam CDP (http://www.audioenz.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=927), I am currently struggling through similar 'sound' issues with my house move.

The new house is a concrete floor with polystyrene insulation in ceiling (and possibly walls - haven't checked?) while the old house was a particle board floor on quite high pyles, with pink batts in walls and ceilings. Also the new house lounge is larger (about twice depth), but has more furniture in it (seating for 7 vs. 4 and a big coffee table that I didn't have at the old place). The front speakers are also in better positions, being further forward from the wall behind (1m+ vs. about 0.5m), and on the one side that is near a side wall, having a little further space from the side wall as well (0.5m vs. 0.3m) - distance between the front speakers is about the same. I realise this isn't ideal for speakers but I haven't ever noticed a huge issue from the "sidewall" closeness and its the one restriction I still have in the new place. Both houses have/had carpet.

I'm finding music through the Plinius (from my MF CDP) seems very "tinny" - like the bass is watered down, but when I have a movie on the SW bass tends to overpower things... I know Max says bass is good, but, it's weird - I'm wondering if it's power related or something? I've taken the Plinius off the Chang Lightspeed PC semi-permanently anyway, but no real change either way... Basically as you turn the volume up the sound seems thinner, its clear and precise but lacking bottom end and depth...

So I'm starting to wonder (apart from the power supply) if there's something else obvious I should try fiddling with to see the effect? I have no spikes on the speakers, so it's not simply the 'spike into concrete' issue...

Also the Chario's Bass Woofers in the base (down firing) seem to be pounding away happy enough, so I'm assuming it's the concrete floor deadening the bass output? At the old house the high floor provided a natural sound cave underneath for the downfiring bass in the speakers...

Anyone with experience's similar to this...? Any ideas or sagely advice?

Cheers,

M.

[Craig F]

Originally posted by mycenius
I'm finding music through the Plinius (from my MF CDP) seems very "tinny" - like the bass is watered down, but when I have a movie on the SW bass tends to overpower things... Basically as you turn the volume up the sound seems thinner, its clear and precise but lacking bottom end and depth...

I have no spikes on the speakers, so it's not simply the 'spike into concrete' issue...

Also the Chario's Bass Woofers in the base (down firing) seem to be pounding away happy enough, so I'm assuming it's the concrete floor deadening the bass output?

In theory the concrete floor could in fact cause the opposite problem. The wooden floor in the last house was more than likely working as a bass trap, giving bass somewhere to dissipate over time where concrete gives it one less area to go. What are the walls made of in your new place and how dense is the polystyrene insulation in the ceiling (walls?)? If you walk through the room while a bass heavy track is playing there should be some areas where the bass is louder and some areas where it's less. Is this the case? Are your speakers ported and if so does the bass output increase if you put them nearer the wall? Check carefully to see that you don't have one speaker out of phase with the other either at the speaker or amp connection. (I know you say that the sound is clear and precise which indicates they're in phase but it's worth a look.) Also check that the phase on the sub is such that they're working with the speakers, not cancelling out the bass in the crossover area. What are the actualy room dimensions? Have you considered simply listening to string quartets so you'll simply not notice the problem so much? (Radical solution I know but you asked for suggestions. ;))

Cheers,

Craig.

[obiwan]

mycenius,

i think you should buy a DEQX PDC 2.6 and if you like it, i'll buy one;) ;)

they're 4 to 5000 AUD depending on what configuration you order

check out: http://www.deqx.com/dsp-product/pdc26.html

cheers

trevor

[Michael Jones]

mycenius,

Craig has said pretty much whaat I was going to say. Concrete tends to keep the bass in the room, whereas woodern walls and floors allows a portion of the bass to escape, so I was expecting the opposite complaint from you!

Wander around the room and see if the bass is much stringer in some areas than you're currently getting. You may have to rearrange your seats, your speaker or both.

[mycenius]

Hi Guy's,

Well, yes, as I said the bass from the SW really 'booms' significantly, which is what I expected from the concrete. So yes I didn't expect the opposite either - hence my confusion...

To make matters more complex I don't know for sure if it did this immediately - I thought it was okay initially, and it's only been an issue the last 2 weeks or so? Which gets really curious because then its a weird coincidence with the issue with my DVD-R AV-inputs being all screwy too...?

In some cases the percussion/drums gets quite dominant (but sounds hollow/tinny), it's like just a particular frequency range of bass (principally bass guitar) has been 'deleted' from the playback.

M.

[Jess9]

Are your speakers bi-wired?

I found after moving speakers that the sound was flat and not very 3 dimensional - not musical at all. Phase seemed OK, I thought, but when I looked carefully even through black was to black etc, the bi wire black bottom was to black top and vice versa for the other speaker. After ensuring bottom black fed bottom black speaker for both side etc, sound was greatly improved!

So is there a phase within a phase for bi wire speakers? All I know is the sound is noticably better now.

Your thoughts?

[mycenius]

Cheers Jess, good thought, but unfortunately not that simple! ;) My Charios aren't bi-wired... :(

M.

[mycenius]

Well, looks like the faults with my Plinius... It's lost all it's bottom end...? :( I've tried putting isolaters underneath (aurios), changing power supply*, switching the ground lift to chassis, but nothing has any effect...

I've tried cables, speakers, everything via my Denon AVR-3803 and all is Sweet with lots of depth and bass, etc...

Running out of ideas, looking more and more to me like the Plinius has dropped its guts... :(

* The only power option I haven't tried is getting the power from a totally different circuit in the house, could a 'shortage' of power have this much impact? I can't see this as being an issue when everything is off except the Amp and a source player...? Straw clutching time...

[Squid]

Myc,
So, with identical set-ups (speaker placement, CDP and cables) the 3803 does not exhibit any problems with bass reproduction but the Plinius does?

I'd be very surprised if it's a power supply problem with only the Plinius and source plugged in. Did the speaker connections on the back of the Plini take a hit during the move? Bass woofer movement is current hungry from the amp so a bad or loose connection will show this up as you've described. Do the Chario's have bi-wiring link plates which are loose? I well remember a demo once where the bass sounded aneamic and it turned out the link plate was loose. Is this effect of lack of bass noticable and equal from both channels?

If you get fed up with the Plini I'll releive you of its burden for a nominal fee. :D

[mycenius]

Hi Squid,

Yes - identical set up and the 3803 performas wonderfully... Actually better than it performed at my old house (which is maybe the true effect of the concrete floor)?

No damage to Plinius. In fact I'm also now 95% certain it wasn't like that immediately after the move, it's too noticeable - it's only happened in the last 2-3 weeks (i.e. about 2 weeks after I moved).

As mentioned previously no bi-wiring on Charios. All cables are Slinkylinks (speakers) and Kimber Silverstreak (interconnects). I have tried others just to be sure. BUT since the 3803 has no problem when it drives the speakers directly it must be the Plinius Amp.

It's not a lack of bass, it's a total absence of it. There just isn't anything below a certain frequency - the more I listen to it the more I realise it can't be a weird effect, it's too major and too specific, it must be a fundamental flaw in the output.

:(

[Squid]

I'd be talking to whoever you bought it from (Soundline?). Sounds like an output stage problem but strange it's on both channels tho.

Good luck - but my offer still stands if you don't have any joy.

[mycenius]

Yep - I've talked to Soundline and will be taking it into there ASAP. I've also emailed Plinius direct for technical support.

[mycenius]

Well for what it's worth my problem seems to have fixed itself... I powered off the unit last night at about 6pm, took it into Soundline about 11am this morning (so it had been off for almost 18 hours and had completely cooled down, etc) and when we hooked it up it worked fine! Ddoh! Grrr... :mad:

Anyway bought it home with the plan that one of the guys from Soundline would come out to see it in my normal environment if it was still playing up and guess what - it's 'Happy as Larry' now (I think)... Bizzare... I can only assume it was something with the processor loop, etc, and that it maybe somehow got tangled up internally and the extended powerdown has resolved it...

Oh well - fingers crossed...

:confused:

M.

[mycenius]

Whoops, spoke too soon - looks like there's some sort of fault on my processor loop (a short)?

:(

Oh well, at least I think I know what it is now...