PT AE-500 / INFOCUS X1 Comparison

[wideboy]

For the record:
1. I make my judgements on what looks good to me.
2. I do not, nor have ever, proclaime/d to have any technical nouse in this field.

Yes that's right, I checked out these 2 pj's today.
I know that the LCD/DLP debate will go on forever.
Is debate the right word?
Anyway, I hadn't seen a DLP pj in action before so I thought it was long overdue.

Firstly, the DLP. (That's the X1, (or is it the 4800?))
I sat down to "Toy Story", surprise surprise!
But the amazing thing was the lights were on.....and I could still see it!
That’s got to be a good thing. But I should have checked which mode it was running in.
Nor did I check the specs on this one.
Enough of the digital 'look at me' wow factor, time for my secret weapon.......
Panic Room, flesh in the dark, that separates the men from the boys.
This being my first experience with a DLP pj I was curious to see whether or not I would be susceptible to the 'dreaded rainbows'.
Unfortunately I was.
I've never actually read a description of the effect, but when you see it, you see it.
5 minutes later I was heading out the door.
This is not to say that anybody else out there should 'right off' this model, nor any DLP pj, the fact the I could watch it with the lights on impressed the hell out of me.
A definite bonus if ambient light is a factor.
Before I saw the rainbows, I was ready to sign on the dotted line.
But as many of you know, you can’t enjoy the movie if your family/guests are whining about “the pain”.

Secondly, the LCD (That's the PT AE-500)
I have to say that I wasn’t as impressed as I’d hoped I be.
No, no sign of the screen door.
No, no sign of chicken wire.
Basically the guy’s had just plugged it in & said “hey look at me!”
It was running in ‘Cinema 2’ mode.
We juggled the factory modes which did have a significant effect on the picture.
As is always the case, everyone has their own opinion of what a ‘good picture’ is.
To date I have allways ‘tweaked’ the factory settings on my tv to cope with varying degrees of ambient light. You know……day-time / night-time.
With all the talk on the net about tweaks I’m sure I could improve the picture.

Next weekend, I’ll go back with “my settings” in hand, see how it looks.

This is turning into a novel so I’ll give it a rest.

please be gentle.

[KoolKiwi]

For those interested, below is the link to "Part 2" of my AE500 / X1 comparison (photo's included).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=336441

My findings in summary:
If you are an existing LCD projector user, or a first time projector buyer, the AE500 certainly represents a great step up in LCD projector performance (and has certainly nailed once and for all, the screendoor effect issue).
However, if you have previously been a CRT or DLP user, then all I can say is LCD is not there yet when it comes to competing on contrast ratio, or resolving the FPN issue. Unfortunately for me (and likely other X1 users), it means there is no cheap 720p upgrade option, so it looks like we need to hold out for a price drop on the HD2 based solutions.

Greg

[stenk]

Originally posted by KoolKiwi
For those interested, below is the link to "Part 2" of my AE500 / X1 comparison (photo's included).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=336441


However, if you have previously been a CRT or DLP user, then all I can say is LCD is not there yet when it comes to competing on contrast ratio, or resolving the FPN issue. Unfortunately for me (and likely other X1 users), it means there is no cheap 720p upgrade option, so it looks like we need to hold out for a price drop on the HD2 based solutions.

Greg

The reason I chose to go with the LCD pj and the AE-500 was really the only choice was, the One DLP PJ I saw at Sony Style in Newmarket was that it made me feel sick, like I was car sick (might sound strange but it also had the same effect on my Wife. At Harvey Norman I looked at the AE-500 and I instantly got the WOW factor that you are meant to have looking at a Big screen.

It could all be down to setup in the stores I went to. But I must say that I do enjoy the AE500.

[KoolKiwi]

Originally posted by stenk
The reason I chose to go with the LCD pj and the AE-500 was really the only choice was, the One DLP PJ I saw at Sony Style in Newmarket was that it made me feel sick, like I was car sick (might sound strange but it also had the same effect on my Wife. At Harvey Norman I looked at the AE-500 and I instantly got the WOW factor that you are meant to have looking at a Big screen.

It could all be down to setup in the stores I went to. But I must say that I do enjoy the AE500.

I'm very glad to hear that you are enjoying your AE500. This is what it is all about! :)

The AE500 is certainly a very nice projector, and as I commented, it certainly represents a great step up in LCD performance. As I also indicated, I would happily recommend this projector to any first time projector owner, or existing LCD projector owner.

I also agree that the dreaded "rainbow effect" is the downside of DLP projectors. It really comes down to whether you are susceptible to them or not.

My personal experience is that I was also highly susceptible to them when I first viewed the X1 DLP projector. Indeed, after my first hour of viewing I felt a nauseous headache coming on (I also get car sick by the way - so perhaps this is an indication?).

Fortunately however, I was able to trial the X1 at home for a number of nights, so I persevered.

After the first night I thought I would have to send it back, however after around 3 nights viewing as I recall, I was no longer noticing the rainbows anywhere near as often, and certainly not to the degree of bothering me anymore. I then decided to keep the projector as I was just enjoying the awesome image that was being projected. After a few weeks it was a case of not remembering when I last saw a rainbow!

Now, 12 months and ~850 hours later, I can say that I literally never see rainbows. Of course, if I flick my head from side to side, whilst rapidly blinking, and viewing a scene with white lights on a black background, then I can still force myself to catch some rainbows!
However, I don't make a habit of doing this during normal viewing. ;)

My personal experience suggests that even for those of us susceptible to DLP rainbows, the wonders of the human brain allow us to adapt and filter out the rainbow effect after a certain amount of viewing.

Of course this doesn't help those who are only able to view projectors for a short time in a showroom, before having to make a purchase decision.
But, at the end of the day, the most important thing is that we all enjoy our own viewing situation!

Greg

[Michael Jones]

Originally posted by KoolKiwi
I also agree that the dreaded "rainbow effect" is the downside of DLP projectors. It really comes down to whether you are susceptible to them or not.

it's not "rainbows" that are the real problem with some DLP projectors.

It's the headaches and eye strain that they produce in a surprising number of people. Yes, including me for the DLP projetors like the X1 and 4800. My eyes are hurting within seconds and a bad headache starts within a couple of minutes.

Early DLP projectors were right on the edge of human perception problems. Some people didn't get sore eyes and headaches, whie others did.

Personally, I wouldn't buy an X1 or any other DLP with those earlier chips in them, even if they cause me no problems. Becasue I could guarantee that a number of visitors would suffer from headaches and sore eyes. And I'm not that bad a host.

Interestingly, the newer projectors using the faster DLP chips appear to be above my threshold for the eyestrain and headache problems.

I need to view them longer though, as I suspect that I can still see these projectors working.

[KoolKiwi]

Originally posted by AudioEnz
it's not "rainbows" that are the real problem with some DLP projectors.
It's the headaches and eye strain that they produce in a surprising number of people.Yes, you could say that it is the headache or eye strain result of the rainbows that is the real problem. However, I would still say that the ability to see a rainbow itself is a very major issue. Headaches or not, no one wants to see flashes of colour that are not part of the intended image!
Originally posted by AudioEnz
Personally, I wouldn't buy an X1 or any other DLP with those earlier chips in them, even if they cause me no problems.Note that the X1 does not use the earlier slower chips. The X1 utilises the newer 12 degree SVGA chip, hence the vastly improved 2000:1 contrast ratio spec. DLP projectors based on the older generation 10 degree DLP chips were generally only rated at around 400:1 CR.

The real problem existed with the early DLP projectors using 1x colour wheel speeds. The X1 uses a 2x colour wheel, and this combined with the faster and higher contrast capable DMD chips has certainly helped. Higher end DLP projectors with faster 5x or 6x colour wheels help to further alleviate the old rainbow problem.

Originally posted by AudioEnz
...Becasue I could guarantee that a number of visitors would suffer from headaches and sore eyes. And I'm not that bad a host.This unfortunately is one of the most quoted reasons why people avoid DLP.

My personal experience... I have had many visitors view my X1 over the last 12 months, and have not yet had anyone (who was not already familiar with and looking for this issue), actually notice the rainbows themselves (without me first pointing out how to see them).
Perhaps I've just been lucky, or perhaps the real percentage of people affected is very low?

Even with my own initial rainbow susceptibility, I do believe that DLP rainbows are greatly "over hyped" in the various HT forums. Perhaps this was primarily due to the experiences of business users with early generation 1x DLP colour wheel projectors?

The various significant benefits of DLP over LCD, certainly mean they should not be immediately written off without consideration, solely on the basis of possible rainbows.

Just as I would not pre-emptively write-off a new LCD projector due to the always present FPN (fixed pattern noise), panel misconvergence issues, and greyer blacks / lower contrast ratios of LCD projectors.

The fairest comment I think is that both DLP and LCD have their individual issues. Certainly, niether are fully "there yet" (in terms of resolving all isues, and their ability to match CRT image quality).

Therefore, it is simply a case of the importance each individual places on each of the LCD / DLP pro's and con's.

Greg

[Michael Jones]

Originally posted by KoolKiwi
Yes, you could say that it is the headache or eye strain result of the rainbows that is the real problem.

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I am not talking about rainbows at all. In fact, I don't see rainbows. The eye strain and headaches are not caused by the rainbows.

Note that the X1 does not use the earlier slower chips. The X1 utilises the newer 12 degree SVGA chip, hence the vastly improved 2000:1 contrast ratio spec. DLP projectors based on the older generation 10 degree DLP chips were generally only rated at around 400:1 CR.

The chip used in the X1, 4800 and all other DLP projectors I have seen prior to the Infocus 5700 and Sim2 300 have caused me 9and many others) eye strain and headaches.

The real problem existed with the early DLP projectors using 1x colour wheel speeds. The X1 uses a 2x colour wheel, and this combined with the faster and higher contrast capable DMD chips has certainly helped. Higher end DLP projectors with faster 5x or 6x colour wheels help to further alleviate the old rainbow problem.

The problems exist for many people with projectors such as the X1. The newer, faster chips appear to have become fast enough to take the problem above the eye perception for everyone. I've not heard of eye strain and headache problems with the newer chips.

My personal experience... I have had many visitors view my X1 over the last 12 months, and have not yet had anyone (who was not already familiar with and looking for this issue), actually notice the rainbows themselves

I repeat: the problem is not with rainbows.

Even with my own initial rainbow susceptibility, I do believe that DLP rainbows are greatly "over hyped" in the various HT forums.

I feel exactly the opposite. I believe that the home theatre press underplayed the problems that many, many people were having with rainbows, eye strain and headaches.

The various significant benefits of DLP over LCD, certainly mean they should not be immediately written off without consideration, solely on the basis of possible rainbows.

Just as I would not pre-emptively write-off a new LCD projector due to the always present FPN (fixed pattern noise), panel misconvergence issues, and greyer blacks / lower contrast ratios of LCD projectors.

The best projectors that this viewer has seen under $15,000 have both been LCD projectors: the Epson TW-100 and the Panasonic AE500. There's an artificial "digital" nature about the picture produced by many of the DLP projectors I've seen.

[Senator]

Any projector you buy is going to have pros and cons, the mighty CRT projectors included.

A user/owner simply has to decide what caveats they are prepared to live with and what ones they are not

Personally I could not have a DLP (such as the 4800/x1) as both myself and my wife suffered from rainbow vision (her within a few seconds had to leave) and eyestrain. There was also an unusual "foggy" feeling behind my eyes after viewing for a few hours.

LCD has the usual screendoor/blacks issue, however with more recent projectors this is becoming less of a problem. I think you have to take into consideration the huge leaps and bounds that LCS has made over recent years. It wasnt that long ago, before I owned a projector at all, that the cheapest LCD projector for home use was $6800 - (Sharp Z1 I think was the model number, could be wrong) - was vga display (640 * 480) had 350 lumens and a 100:1 contrast ratio. Now look at the AE500, the "entry point" of Panasonics projectors in comparison.

It is probably fair to use the same argument on DLP projectors aswell, with faster colour wheels and better chips it is equally likely that the average Joe consumer will benefit greatly both in quality of product and reduced price points for projectors, but IMHO they are not there yet.

As for CRT, well, I have had one and sold it, for me, the constant reconvergence/refocusing of the CRT's was too much of a pain in the butt, and I hated seeing colour bleeding on edges.

Sen

[KoolKiwi]

Originally posted by AudioEnz
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I am not talking about rainbows at all. In fact, I don't see rainbows. The eye strain and headaches are not caused by the rainbows.My apologies for the misinterpretation. As the rainbows are an artifact of the sequentual RGB colour rendition of a DLP projector, I had interpreted your "...eye strain that they produce" comment as being a reference to the rainbows (instead of the DLP technology itself).

The sequential RGB colour rendition of DLP (that also produces the rainbow effect), would appear to be the only factor that could be contributing to the eye strain or headaches you report.

ie: The fast time division based sequential flashes of the individual primary RGB colours, that our brains normally merge into a single colour, perhaps results in this fatique?
The best projectors that this viewer has seen under $15,000 have both been LCD projectors: the Epson TW-100 and the Panasonic AE500. There's an artificial "digital" nature about the picture produced by many of the DLP projectors I've seen. These views are of course purely subjective (as are mine). ;)

Likewise, many people (including myself), find that modern DLP projectors produce a significantly more "film like" image, with better colour accuracy, and a more 3-dimensional image due to the better real contrast ratios / deeper blacks.

Once again, the best advice for anyone choosing between DLP or LCD, is to view as many different projectors as possible, and then form their own opinion of what looks best for them.

Greg

[KoolKiwi]

Originally posted by Senator
As for CRT, well, I have had one and sold it, for me, the constant reconvergence/refocusing of the CRT's was too much of a pain in the butt, and I hated seeing colour bleeding on edges.

Sen If properly installed, and mechanically aligned to the screen correctly (rasters correctly centered etc), a good CRT should not require "constant reconvergence/refocusing of the CRT's". If so, either it has not been setup correctly, or it has a fault in the convergence electronics. Any drift in the focus would also suggest a fault in the HV drive area.

Granted, there is significantly more work in properly installing, setting up, and tweaking a CRT projector. This is most certainly not for everyone!

However the fact remains that only a (properly setup) CRT projector, can deliver the quality of image that can completely ruin a persons opinion of any digital projector.

Greg