About those expensive equipment stands...

[Azrael]

I have read around a bit and found that it is the general consensus that what you put your equipment on is quite important. According to a review of the Naim Fraim on this site it is worth spending a third of you're budget on it.

My question is *how* does the stand make a difference? I don't mean a metallic stand creates a metallic sound or somesuch. I mean how does the stand effect the components in the amp or cd player. Because from my (admitidly only 1st year uni level) physics knowledge would suggest that the electrons moving around in the amp are completely oblivious to what stand the amp is sitting on.

Any links or explanations anyone could provide would be much appreciated.

Cheers,
Darren

A puzzled beginner hifi enthusiast.

[Mevunky]

OCNZ, have met before?

Isolation of equipment from each other EMI with shelves in between is a starter.

[Azrael]

No, we havn't met be before, I do not post on OCNZ.

Thanks, I can see how EMI could be an issue. But, then surely electromagnetic shielding would be fitted to the high end equipment, hence removing the problem.
At any rate, that does not account for the "coloured" sound caused by using a glass stand etc. as mentioned in the Naim Fraim review. It also doesn't explain why some people use bike tires etc. to stand their equipment on. Surely the CDP is not creating vibrations unless the spinning mechanism is not properly balanced. And even if it were how would these small vibrations effect the conduction of electrons in the amp?

I do not mean to be critical of the view that the stand is important, I simply do not understand how it can be so important.

Darren

[Ayou2]

its simply vibration & resonance control.

eg: a CDP sitting on a rack, coupled to the floor, can pick up unwanted vibration transported to it via the speakers coupled to the floor also.

unwanted vibration could cause the laser mech reading the data to tremour minutely but this could be enough to alter the sound enough to be audible.

decoupling the player from the vibrating rack (or in the case of the Naim Fraim - having a very non resonant rack) assist's the laser to read with more stability, possibly producing an audible difference in sound.

Some high end CDP's have some vibration control built in, but really why waste time, money & energy performing internal feats that are already widely available as an external add on.

Have you seen the myriad & amount of anti vibration devices on the market ?

There must be something in it.

[Azrael]

Oh ok, that sure makes sense for the CDP, I simply did not consider the vibrations from the speakers like that. Thanks for that Ayou2.

But I still do not understand how the construction of the rack you have your equipment on alters the sound characteristics as described in the article (http://www.audioenz.co.nz/2002/0802.html). Giving "ungrounded" or "dull" or "ringing" sound just because of the materials the rack is built out of.

Darren

[too_tall]

Giving "ungrounded" or "dull" or "ringing" sound just because of the materials the rack is built out of.

Darren

Very subjective, and rather emotive as opposed to descriptive words those aren't they? My argument on this one is that the manufacturers of high end equipment, who charge a huge premium for their products, really should ( if they don't already ) have a decent chassis which will do all they need as far as environmental isolation ( stop the vibration )
Does a very expensive stand with all sorts of big words scattered throughout the marketing material for it perform any better than a cheapish, but still solid stand? Thats subjective, personally, I think that they do. Note the still solid part though. I use a home made entertainment rack, with 50mm square rimu skeletal type frame supporting leather covered 19mm MDF for the panels the units sit on. it does not resonate, and the leather covering adds just that little wee bit of damping and also looks good. Cost about $200 in materials and a day to make it. To buy might be around $1200 or so I would imagine. Maybe less.

[Azrael]

Thanks for the advice too_tall, but what I am really after is an explanation of how these things affect the performance of the amp. I can understand that resonance etc. of a speaker stand would be important as speakers make a sound. Amps etc. on the other hand spit out electrons and I don't understand how the electrons are effected by what kind of stand the amp is sitting on.

[Ayou2]

well i'm not wholly convinced on that 'wood sounds woody, glass sounds glassy' often written about in equipment reviews.

Part of me thinks it might just be psychoacoustics at its finest.

having said that I also don't think science is evolved enough to explain every audible phenomenon we may experience. so it gets written off as an overactive imagination on the part of the listener, rather than an admittance that we don't know everything and probably never will.

[Azrael]

Thats the conclusion I was heading towards Ayou2, I guess there isn't a scientific explanation for this particular phenomenon. Quite unfortunate as I like to understand how phenomena work, especially the more far fetched they sound ;)

[Ayou2]

Thanks for the advice too_tall, but what I am really after is an explanation of how these things affect the performance of the amp. I can understand that resonance etc. of a speaker stand would be important as speakers make a sound. Amps etc. on the other hand spit out electrons and I don't understand how the electrons are effected by what kind of stand the amp is sitting on.

placing the amp on a non resonant rack would be more about reducing vibration in the smaller parts such as resistors, small caps, circuit boards etc.

if the components that make up an amp are vibrating, then the electrons that travel its circuit paths must be vibrating also No?

so given that the name of the game in hi-fi is producing the most linear signal possible and that the signal consists of electrons, then reducing unwanted vibration in components must help produce a more linear signal ... which could be heard as an improvement in sound.

does that make sense ?



conversely .... if electrons in the amp are subject to unwanted vibrations then, according to 1st year physics, why would that NOT affect the sound / produce a less than desirable signal in terms of linearity.

[Azrael]

If the amp is at a temperature above absolute zero (-273 degrees C) which I am going to assume it is ;) then the atoms in the circuit path are already vibrating, and yes this vibration will affect the mean time between collisions of the electrons into atoms. As far as I am aware this only causes an increase in resistance (and hence an increase in temperature which results in increased mobility of electrons so an equilibrium would be reached). So there would be no change to the signal.

Also even if these vibrations did result in a slightly less linear signal (i dont think it would but i also don't properly understand electron theory, all that 'matter wave' and quantum business confuses me) the type of material the amp is sitting on would not make a difference beyond just reducing vibrations. Yet this is contrary to what seems to be the general consensus on equipment stands.

[Ayou2]

thanks Azrael, another myth busted.

I'm taking an axe to my rack the minute i finish typing this ;)

how about, instead of hanging out on forums attempting to poke fun at poor defenceless audiophile's and their racks, you harness that questioning scientific nature of yours and focus on something that actually harms us as humans beyond consensually lightening our wallets.

you could email your local politician asking why the choice to administer flouride is taken out of our hands and why it is instead added to our water supply. could it be that we are essentially used as a dumping ground for a toxic bi-product of the chemical & aluminium production industries ?

surely not ... who would be that evil ?

Oh of course ..... A rack salesman :o

[Azrael]

I'm sorry I really don't mean to "poke fun at poor defenceless audiophiles". I am just interested in the physics behind this whole rack phenomenon. In fact I am not even disputing that it does make a difference (I don't consider myself to have nearly enough experience with listening to different systems to make that call). I simply would like to know the physical reason for the differences in sounds heard from equipment on different stands.

[Low Orbit]

Hi Azreal, welcome to the forums. Aha, another person from ChCh.

It's been my experience that racks made from different materials sound different because of sonics, not electrical / mechanical coupling / decoupling.

Eg - if you have the soundwaves flying around your room from the loudspeakers, and bouncing off a metal / glass creation, they can consequently sound brighter than with a timber one.

It's a matter of preference. I prefer timber racks myself, others don't.

Cheers, Shane.

[too_tall]

Does a very expensive stand with all sorts of big words scattered throughout the marketing material for it perform any better than a cheapish, but still solid stand? Thats subjective, personally, I think that they do.

OPPS!!!! me made a blue there sorry. Personally, I don't think that price has a great bearing on the "sound" of a stand. I managed to miss out the n't in there sorry!:o :o :o

[Azrael]

Eg - if you have the soundwaves flying around your room from the loudspeakers, and bouncing off a metal / glass creation, they can consequently sound brighter than with a timber one.

So the rack that the amp is sitting on is altering the the way the sound is bouncing around after the sound has left the speakers? That is certainly something I can accept. It just still seems a bit odd for one item in the room to be worth spending a lot of money on just to sort out the way it interacts with the sound waves. But I guess if you are carefully choosing other aspects of the room then one piece of furniture could make a difference. It was just the altering of the signal coming out of the amp (as in before it has reached the speakers) that I could not understand.

Thanks for your help Shane.
Darren

[otisredding]

Hey mate, one Darren to another, if your room sucks acoustically no expensive rack (or system for that matter) is gonna sound any good.

IMHO people should make sure the room is setup for good sound properly before 'fine tuning' their systems with things like 'rack ring'.....

The other day I heard some very expensive Naim gear in a 'flash architectually designed' room that made it all sound like the public address system at the Wellington Railway Station. :D They might as well have bought Bose.

[michael w]

"architectually designed" is the kiss of death for good sound !

Most modern houses have truly abominable acoustics.

No wonder so much low/mid-fi gets sold to the affluent.

[LHH]

"If there is a difference in sound", is not a question that really deserves any attention. For anyone with ears the answer is a resounding, unhesitating YES!:eek:

But "why is there a sound difference" is a good question. And one I am unable to answer. I believe there is a good explanation (or there used to be), on the Townsend Audio site (bearing in mind that Townsend sell VERY expensive racks).:rolleyes:

From experience I would suggest that the sound difference is due to vibration in the equipment, and has little to do with reflection. The reason I say this is that different components consistently react differently to isolation. CD players benefit the most, followed by pre-amps, followed by power-amps (I don't have a turntable or a tuner so can't comment).
If reflection was the main issue there would be no difference between different components.

For anyone who is unable to accept that their might be differences I suggest you buy some squash balls, cut them in half, and triangulate them under your CD player. You've now spent a grand total of $10 bucks (rather than hundreds), and I would be very very very very very very very very (etc.) surprised if you are unable to hear a difference. The same principals of isolation (that you have experienced with the squash balls) apply to racks.

Another vibration contaminant, besides that from your speakers, CD transport, and power transformers, is natural seismic activity. It occurs all the time (at low levels). There is also traffic vibration, if you live in town...

My 10c only. ;)

[Azrael]

Cheers for that Samuel, I cnt find the explanation on their site (http://www.townshendaudio.net/) but at least now I know that there is an explanation to be found somewhere.

Darren

Edit: Just found it. :o

[Azrael]

After reading the townshend audio (http://www.townshendaudio.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=46&Itemid=105) explanation I am unfortunately no closer to understanding how vibrations affect the the pre/power amps (the CDP i can understand). I already knew how under damped systems etc. work, i just do not understand how vibrations could affect solid state electronics.

[LHH]

Cheers for that Samuel

Um, I'm Luc (Luke), the quote is by Samuel Beckett the Irish novelist and playwright (He won the Nobel prize in literature for "Waiting for Goddot", a two act play - where 'nothing happens twice'.) :)

After reading the townshend audio explanation I am unfortunately no closer to understanding how vibrations affect the the pre/power amps (the CDP i can understand). I already knew how under damped systems etc. work, i just do not understand how vibrations could affect solid state electronics.

Hmmm. That's not the explanation I was thinking of. Maybe it used townsend as an example, but wasn't on their site, I'll have a hunt around and see if I can find the link...

[Azrael]

Sorry about that Luke :o

I had a look around my self and have not found anything, I also sent townshend an email asking them if they could explain it to me seeing as they had already explained the dampening of their stands... I have had no reply despite having sent it a few days ago.

Thanks for your help anyway

Darren

[Owen Y]

Goldmund, were one of the first to study & advance solutions for vibration control in audio.

http://www.goldmund.com/technology/mechanicalgrounding/

Owen