After CD

[Guy]

There have been several threads about digital music storage and reproduction over the past few months and it would seem that CD's time is nearly over. The other factor leading to this question is that my CD player is nearly twenty years old: it's still going strong but you never know...
So, if neither CDs nor my CD player have long to go, where to next? As a complete non-techy type I imagine that copying CDs to a hard disk shouldn't matter what equipment you use because it's just ones and zeros. My few experiments with computer based audio (see another thread) have been disappointing but I'll need to copy CDs to somewhere. Getting to the point; do I need a good CD player to copy CDs or will any device do and what do I need to replay it? Is a music server the way to go? I'm just trying to catch up twenty years here...

[neil]

Hi Guy, I would suggest for a self proclaimed non techy person a stand alone music server like an Olive might be the way to go. The are self contained and all you have to do is hook it up to your network and away you go.
The 04HD stores up to 6000 uncompressed cds, so you should have plenty of space...
and it even sounds good too.

[Robocop]

I concur with neil look into music servers. The main thing would be to try and get something with some element of upgrade ability if possible. The Olive's have had great reviews but there are others out there.

Check out Computer Audiophile web site for one for info.

[kaka]

Check out Computer Audiophile web site for one for info.

That's a good call.

The big thread on this site is Explorations-concerning-computer-based-audio (http://www.audioenz.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/8523-Explorations-concerning-computer-based-audio)
The specialised computer builds optimised to not compromise sound are head and shoulders better sounding than general purpose PCs. I've got a Hackintosh and a mac laptop, and there is no just comparison. And the players all sound different too (I've got xxHighend, Jriver, Foobar and others on PC, and Amarra, Decibel and PureMusic on mac. No two the same out of that lot).

[Ernie]

A mac mini with an iPod Touch is another way to run a computer like an appliance. Still requires an external DAC and that's the key, amongst other things to this thorny issue.

I have several clients running this kind of setup and it suits them fine with one set of software to use -- iTunes. The mac is upgradeable and the various hardware components interchangeable, eg, better USB cables, better DACs, another layer of software like Amarra, more RAM. The bonus for them is the ability to subscribe to music streaming services. Not audiophile quality but good enough to make decisions about future purchases.

[Brian Ono]

Although I plan to run a rear guard action for cds (much like the vinyl officinados)Its always a good idea to get them into alternative storage(eg a computorI,m not too worried about what type)because once you have the files saved its not a big deal to transfer them to an alternative system.I agree with Ernie on playback options ,but once theyre stored it gives you plenty of time to consider your options.I would also recommend havin g a couple of other storage options for saftey(external hard drives)I save all my files as wav.:)

[chiba]

Interesting conversation. For me, people using computers as a source finally kills off the myth about "not all bits being the same", so I heartily approve! :D Bits are bits, no matter how you store them, and what comes out of the end of a digital interconnect is the same no matter what mechanism you use to store said bits, be that a Cd in $5000 "transport" or a commodity hard disk in a Mac. If you read all of the information from a CD and store it lossleslly on a hard disk then you may as well bin the CD - it was just a convenient way to take the bits it home from the shop.

Finally people are free to concentrate their search for quality in the right place, namely the transition from that utterly reliable digital information into an analog signal. DACs matter.

[chopper]

If you read all of the information from a CD and store it lossleslly on a hard disk then you may as well bin the CD - it was just a convenient way to take the bits it home from the shop.

Finally people are free to concentrate their search for quality in the right place, namely the transition from that utterly reliable digital information into an analog signal. DACs matter.

Good point. I suppose CD's make a last resort back-up - a bit like having actual printed photos from your digital camera.
I've kept all mine mainly because my wife likes picking out a CD from time to time and playing it

[Ernie]

Bits are bits, no matter how you store them, and what comes out of the end of a digital interconnect is the same no matter what mechanism you use to store said bits...

Yes and no. There are finer differences in how a CD might be ripped, eg, EAC or iTunes, and the difference is not in the bits, but in stuff like error correction. For most users this discussion is the same as talking about the colour of snow. But to Inuit people there are an infinite number of shades...

[Des W]

Hmmm-

I'd tend to tread carefully with the Olive--as good as it is--there seems to be some conjecture re the proprietary Software it uses-evidently some uses have had trouble retrieving
their files after a malfunction as Olive won't release any details to the consumer.

I tried to find the article but it has eluded me--possibly someone has more facts on this?

Anyway Caveat Emperor

Des

[chiba]

Yes and no. There are finer differences in how a CD might be ripped, eg, EAC or iTunes, and the difference is not in the bits, but in stuff like error correction. For most users this discussion is the same as talking about the colour of snow. But to Inuit people there are an infinite number of shades...

A bitwise copy is a bitwise copy. Otherwise your software wouldn't install and you'd never be able to copy anything to and from CD on different machines and drives. That's why you normally get a hash with ISO images of Linux distros.

In my view the only thing that confuses the matter is that a binary extract of a CD made on your computer isn't really comparable to how a "normal" audio CD player works.

I find it particularly amusing that hi-fi makers have cottoned on to the PC audio trend and will now sell you an elegant, thick alloy box with a commodity CDROM drive and a hard disk for "hi fi prices". Farcical, really.

[Ernie]

I think Perreaux did this with their SHX series way back when... nothing new.

[Robocop]

You still can't beat going the computer way. Perhaps you need to do a night school course on managing a computer. In the long run its all worth it.

Plenty of advice is on the web and available on sites like this although "Audioenz" needs to break out and have a dedicated computer topic area in these forums.

Plus you can upgrade software and hardware as you go where as music servers I suspect will be limited in upgrades and as you know the computer industry just keeps moving forward.

[analogism]

Addicted to mainly vinyl: check.
Can't be assed following antipodes amazing hackintosh guide: check.
Decided to get a good ipod dock (digital stream only, a la wadia, thanks): check.
Have to wait for xmas to see how it sounds.

Seriously, though, if you only want a few hundred cd's worth of music on call, this could be an option. Big ipod + WAV files + good dock (Cambridge or Wadia) + good dac.

I'll report in the new year.

[kaka]

The downside of going ipod+dock is if you ever want to try higher definition material
If CD quality is the only target, then it is a good option.

[coleus]

"Audioenz" needs to break out and have a dedicated computer topic area in these forums.


suggested back in 2008 , you never know :D

[Dunnersfella]

I seriously considered the Olive, but when I stopped and thought about it - it just didn't stack up. The front panel is far too small for me to view from my seated position, the iPod/iPad app didn't strike me as being overly polished either. And as I'd already ripped my audio, the CD mechanism struck me as being superfluous...
Just my opinion though, as the sound is quite well thought of. But I'm sure a Mac Mini or Hackintosh PLUS and DAC will achieve a far more flexible setup.

[Brian Ono]

You need to keep the cd as proof of availability to copy and hold the copyrighted material on it.Im sure this will change with more legal downloading .Dont know if anyone actually enforces this or not.

[tkr001]

Addicted to mainly vinyl: check.
Can't be assed following antipodes amazing hackintosh guide: check.
Decided to get a good ipod dock (digital stream only, a la wadia, thanks): check.
Have to wait for xmas to see how it sounds.

Seriously, though, if you only want a few hundred cd's worth of music on call, this could be an option. Big ipod + WAV files + good dock (Cambridge or Wadia) + good dac.

I'll report in the new year.

Have an iD100 and iPod Classic. The sound isn't comparable in any way to the hackintosh IMHO of course.

[Luis]

Haven't any of you seen Space Odyssey 2001, Th Matrix or The Terminator? Computers will end up taking over the world an DESTROYING us. Stay well away from them!

[Ta Moko]

Hi Guy,
I can relate to your line of questioning since recently having had a fairly steep learning curve of my own - having accepted the demise of my cd player as the perfect foil for broaching the topic of hard disc based archiving & playback. I would also describe myself as non-techy, yet I've been pleasantly surprised at just how simple it's been to get set-up with a small amount of reading/learning & a willingness to have a go. I've also been pleased at how little expense has been required, in relative terms, to achieve good playback quality. I still buy cd's though - to source high quality digital content until "full quality" download services become more commonplace and offer greater variety this will likely continue.

You mention that your previous experiments with PC based music have been disappointing - in what way (perhaps you could post a link to the thread you mention)? Clearly setting up a PC based library/playback system throws up a few challenges - and this can be daunting but the experience so far makes me wonder why I didn't just get on with it earlier. So - what have you experimented with so far if at all?

[kiwi_1282001]

After CD = Computers with DACS?

Well taking the cue from the arisen mythical Max – I think the only place computers are good for is the office…. :)

For the music room and a for a complete non-techy (if there is such a word, perhaps techie?) a CD player whence one sticks a silver thingy in and presses play and you are all done for the next sixty minutes is mighty appealing.

Is the bugle calling the last post for CD? I am sure all have read sad melodic proclamations that major labels are to abandon CD’s by the end of 2012.

Truth is, record labels have shown no desire to ditch the CD – so why the rush to ditch CD players? The CD format still accounts for most sales revenue, and labels have been able to encourage the development of new digital business models while enjoying - not relying on - the considerable revenue CD sales provide. It hasn't been the prettiest process in the history of business, but letting the CD die a slow, graceful death has been preferable to premature euthanasia.

Contrary to dubious reports there is no major label plan to abandon the CD format by the end of 2012. Such a doomsday scenario has frequently come up but has not materialized. History has proven labels and distributors are willing to work with retailers to keep them carrying music. Retailers may carry fewer titles and they pay less for them - which allows them to charge less - but they still carry CDs.

So, ditch the CD format and the anachronistic CD player? Well as I see it CD’s are a much more satisfying purchase than downloads (I buy both); record companies will want to keep the format going as they can’t replace the revenue with downloads and finally recent tests still conclude that a decent spinner trumps a PC/DAC sonically.

[analogism]

Have an iD100 and iPod Classic. The sound isn't comparable in any way to the hackintosh IMHO of course.

The more digital we get, the more difficult it is to determine wherein lies the 'degradation'. In your case - the higher res files played via the hack - or ssd vs the classics hdd - would be the most obvious reasons for improvement over the classic/dock combo...

I have had the dock running with my dac for the last week - it is certainly as good as any cd player put through my rig. Loving it.

I imagine

[Willie]

Who says CD is dead? I remember them saying that about LPs 2 decades ago..... and CD players have just gotten good enough to listen too. I have four squeezboxes for casual listening but serious listening is from HARD media.

[tkr001]

The more digital we get, the more difficult it is to determine wherein lies the 'degradation'. In your case - the higher res files played via the hack - or ssd vs the classics hdd - would be the most obvious reasons for improvement over the classic/dock combo...

I have had the dock running with my dac for the last week - it is certainly as good as any cd player put through my rig. Loving it.

I imagine

Dunno. I also have a sb touch and the hack trumps that too playing the same files. I really have to thank Antipodes for pointing the way to a hackintosh. Some here say a good cd player will always win out. My experience is different.

[kaka]

Dunno. I also have a sb touch and the hack trumps that too playing the same files. I really have to thank Antipodes for pointing the way to a hackintosh. Some here say a good cd player will always win out. My experience is different.

Yes. Some of the "reviews" of computer based audio basically serve to show that the reviewer isn't on top of the game. There is one on Positive Feedback where the player used was iTunes, and others that use Pure Music (my least preferred mac player).

As we know purpose built hack hardware is far better than a Macbook, and better than a Mac Mini. There is also the question of what file format they are playing - .wav or something lesser?

[aspar13]

Hi

Interesting discussion. Looking it up, I understand that Hackintosh is a PC running Mac OSX. Can someone explain the advantages vis-a-vis a Mac Mini or MacBook as source?

Thanks!

[Ernie]

Take a look at the dedicated thread for the Hackintosh by Antipodes. Everything explained in detail.

It may take the whole duration of the holidays to digest though.

[Michael Jones]

Nice to know that my computer audio reviews are useless, as I use a Mac Mini and iTunes. I thought I could clearly hear the difference between review items but I must be imagining things.

[Robocop]

Hackintosh is a PC running Mac OSX
Generally a home made or shop dedicated PC put together with the "best Hi-Fi(sound wise) grade parts" ie:Solid state hard drive, fanless power supply etc. Antipodes is the man on this and runs Apple OSX software on this configuration. In terms of best sound from a computer source this is it or a variation on this. See Ernie's post above.
This PC is dedicated to music playback entirely, to preserve sound quality. Only loading programs to manipulate music and playback.


Mac Mini or MacBook

Off the shelf products made to conduct all the computer tasks your average Joe blow expects. Not dedicated to music but can produce a pretty good sound that will beat most CD players.

A good starting place or a PC laptop with Windows also valid but trickier to use. If you are new there is a lot to learn but all worth it.

[Ta Moko]

I find some of the strong reactions here quite amusing - after all... what is a compact disc if not merely a nicely packaged delivery method for digital code? Or for that matter what is a cd player but a device intended to read data and transfer it to a DAC -whether integrated or outboard. In other words we've already been doing this whole "digital" deal for nearly three decades - just now by different means.

Hence my amusement at some of these big calls suggesting that PC based replay methods (apparently regardless of the quality of the individual set-up) are somehow inherently inferior to a CD source - apparently due to some imagined association between audio replay via PC/DAC and the darkside.

I have nothing against the idea of CD replay - but high quality PC based replay is already a present day reality - for some more than others it seems.

[davyboy9]

Linn didn't stop making some of the best CD players for nothing, they knew where technology was heading.

[jasper]

I've mentioned this before.

Sugden released their new $9000 Masterclass CD Player a couple of months ago and they cannot keep up with production.

One Dutch shop alone sold seven in three days as soon as they arrived in store. (I wish I supplied that shop!)

I think away from all the talk of cd disappearing are a whole bunch of people happily buying them and continuing to enjoy them.
You get the hard copy. You get the packaging and lyric sheets and nowadays you tend to get them at very good prices.

Unless you are downloading hi-res files why would you not get the cd, unless the prices are vastly different or the music is pirated.

It is all very anecdotal I know, but I hear all the talk about this disappearing format but these new production cd players sell very well.

I'm confused!

[Luis]

I've mentioned this before.

Sugden released their new $9000 Masterclass CD Player a couple of months ago and they cannot keep up with production.

One Dutch shop alone sold seven in three days as soon as they arrived in store. (I wish I supplied that shop!)

I think away from all the talk of cd disappearing are a whole bunch of people happily buying them and continuing to enjoy them.
You get the hard copy. You get the packaging and lyric sheets and nowadays you tend to get them at very good prices.

Unless you are downloading hi-res files why would you not get the cd, unless the prices are vastly different or the music is pirated.

It is all very anecdotal I know, but I hear all the talk about this disappearing format but these new production cd players sell very well.

I'm confused!

No wonder you're confused, you should be tucked up in bed. Just look at the time!

[Ta Moko]

Sugden released their new $9000 Masterclass CD Player a couple of months ago and they cannot keep up with production.

I'm confused!

No offence, but I'm not sure this really "proves" anything.

For instance - everyone knows that the planets oil supply is dwindling, yet the likes of Ferrari and Lamborghini continue to produce overpriced, gas guzzling sports cars. Not like the continued production of these will lead to a magical reversal of the obvious outcome?

[Robocop]

I buy CD's because that's the only half decent format freely available still.
But when converted to computer file its transformed.

It is annoying though that its so limited at 16/44. Vinyl(more forgiving for playback scenarios) continues to have support even though this has severe mechanical limitations let alone the RIAA curve. But it does have high frequency extension which CD never had, Hi res has this covered. Bring it on I say.

[Shane Hanify]

Interesting thread.

On the various playback methods through a computer based setup I don't really think it matters what the front end is, as long as it suits the gear it's played through. I still prefer to spin physical media, but then again I don't have a reasonable digital playback outside of the PC which is nowhere near the lounge. I don't think CD is going anywhere any time soon.

[homebrew]

i was probably one of the last persons to buy a cd player and the first 2 i had the sound was w a disappointment but now i have a cd player i am happy with the sound i will not be changing until you can not get cds any more.i also like the physical media

[webbed]

Life after cd, well I reckon half the push for computer streaming / downloading has come about from Apple which was probably not aimed at the audiophile in the first place, rather more the generic ipod. So you know you can jump on what you want. I just can't be bothered with establishing a complete new front end because it's available. Same with vinyl, cd will continue, probably becoming less available in shops and more online. Not everyone jumps on the latest technology, in context of myself I don't understand it well enough to ensure it performs better than what I understand (putting discs in / on machines). There again I intend to take full advantage of the extrinsic benefit - cheap Dac's!

[kaka]

The tipping point may be if downloads become available at CD quality, rather than just mp3.

I've picked up more than 50 CDs from CD Baby over the last year, and one of their mp3s as an experiment (that album was only available in mp3). The material in the mp3 was great, but the SQ so disappointingly short of CD I've only played it a couple of times. If they had CD resolution flac or wav available, then downloads would have been my preference and the US postal service would have been redundant. Plus their packing fees.

[Ernie]

Life after cd, well I reckon half the push for computer streaming / downloading has come about from Apple which was probably not aimed at the audiophile in the first place, rather more the generic ipod. So you know you can jump on what you want. I just can't be bothered with establishing a complete new front end because it's available. Same with vinyl, cd will continue, probably becoming less available in shops and more online. Not everyone jumps on the latest technology, in context of myself I don't understand it well enough to ensure it performs better than what I understand (putting discs in / on machines). There again I intend to take full advantage of the extrinsic benefit - cheap Dac's!

As always, there are DACs and then there are DACs. There's always something cheaper, but the basics don't change, like good power regulation and circuit design... blah, blah, blah.

[Michael Jones]

When you have a look at the history of legal downloads you see the story of what was possible at the time. In the early days of the iTunes Store, for example, bandwidth was no where near as plentiful as it is today and the record companies were terrified of full resolution downloads. So the first iTunes downloads were in low-res AAC and with DRM (digital rights management) built in.

Later the DRM was dropped and the resolution improved as bandwidth worldwide improved.

I suspect that CD resolution downloads are on Apple's servers, just waiting for the switch to be thrown. Or, at the very least, on the record companies servers in the right format(s) just waiting for iTunes to go to CD resolution.

I helped a friend upload her album through distributor CD Baby for inclusion in the iTunes Store and Amazon's mp3 stores. CD Baby insisted on the upload being in CD resolution (in flac or wav), paving the way for future resolutions.

[webbed]

For sure copying of Cd's is a major influence. You can't criticise the artist / label for wanting to create a new market (or medium) to protect their financial interests. Look at all the live gigs now. As for dac's these days, I can spend $600, choose a chip and live quite comfortably. The alternative being another 2k + and a Benchmark for example. I believe the performance parameters have tightened to an extent, Audio Gd being an example. There again you could sell the car for a train ticket and a Remiyo.

[tkr001]

The tipping point may be if downloads become available at CD quality, rather than just mp3.

I've picked up more than 50 CDs from CD Baby over the last year, and one of their mp3s as an experiment (that album was only available in mp3). The material in the mp3 was great, but the SQ so disappointingly short of CD I've only played it a couple of times. If they had CD resolution flac or wav available, then downloads would have been my preference and the US postal service would have been redundant. Plus their packing fees.

Exactly. I still buy truckloads of CDs but one I have ripped them they go away in a box. If I could download flac, wav or any other lossless format I would. I don't mind paying for it either.

[jasper]

Hey Luis,

Sheeeez..... cripes look at the time now! I really am due for bed now. First sleep of 2012!

I can't wait for the upcoming total unconsciousness to experience it

[Willie]

The whole it's just 1s and 0s arguement shows a naive ignorance of the technical issues. A computer will never make a good transport because of any number of reasons. The main ones are cheap dirty power supplies, RFI/EMI, jitter to name a few.

In my opinion CDs will not disappear for a long long time. The predictions about CDs demise are wrong. At JB hifi before Xmas the shop was packed and people were 12 deep in the queue. Sales figures have dropped because of downloads but people still want to buy something tangible.

[kaka]

The whole it's just 1s and 0s arguement shows a naive ignorance of the technical issues. A computer will never make a good transport because of any number of reasons. The main ones are cheap dirty power supplies, RFI/EMI, jitter to name a few.

I would qualify that - an off the shelf computer won't make a great transport for just the reasons you listed, but a purpose built one can. The contrast between my macbook and hackintosh is immense, both using the same player and being controlled by the dac via firewire.

The Antipodes hack is fanless, has a carefully selected power supply and no conventional hard drive.

CD player designers have dealt with all the electrical noise, signal isolation and power supply issues, and it's pretty optimistic to expect an off the shelf computer to deal with them as well.

[Luis]

Hey Luis,

Sheeeez..... cripes look at the time now! I really am due for bed now. First sleep of 2012!

I can't wait for the upcoming total unconsciousness to experience it

And happy New Year to you Mr Jasper, and all other forumers.

[too_tall]

an off the shelf computer won't make a great transport for just the reasons you listed, but a purpose built one can. The contrast between my macbook and hackintosh is immense,

This is where my feelings that computers as the transport are not the way forward. They are the storage medium of the future, for sure, as ANY computer which is correctly operating will store files bit perfect, otherwise nothing would remain working for long!. I could copy files between several of my local area computers back and forwards for months on end, and the files would remain bit perfect. And because its not done in realtime, the timing of those bits is irrelevant to the final outcome..

Hence, if computers, for whatever reasons, are unable to deliver those bits to a DAC easily and in a timely fashion ( very timely in otherwords ) then it makes sense to not have an over the top computer ( I have a hack, but dont really use it as its a PITA to be honest imo ) and to just use an average computer which can dump an entire file onto a network based player, which has only got to fetch the file, buffer it, and feed it into either a DAC directly, or feed it out via spdif/AES/I2S etc.

Why do I see this as the ideal way forwards?

Simple to build. it has very little to do - no pairing down of an OS for starters
low power consumption. Its not going to have a high power draw processor, therefore a lower powered power supply ( even a battery ) will run it, which makes it cheaper and often easier to get a _very_ well smoothed and isolated power supply
no moving parts being its fairly well accepted this adds noise, no large amounts of head to dump, no disks nearby
no additional electronics Like it or not, every hack has additional electronics, as does any other computer based playback option. Video adapters, self monitoring devices, storage adapters, expansion adapters. All these are operational, even if they are not doing anything. All adds to the system noise.

It is all just 1's and 0's. Anyone who argues differently clearly does not understand what digital means. The only difference is how well timed those 1's and 0's are delivered to the DAC, nothing more, nothing less.

Of course, now that I have said all this, I have also got to say, I have yet to find a network based playback device which is truly a game changer on the sound quality front. The Squeezebox sure is not, the Airport Express most definitely is not either. Maybe we need someone to develop what is quite simply a Ethernet to firewire adapter? Or Ethernet to I2S?

[Ta Moko]

The whole it's just 1s and 0s arguement shows a naive ignorance of the technical issues. A computer will never make a good transport because of any number of reasons. The main ones are cheap dirty power supplies, RFI/EMI, jitter to name a few.

Seriously? Before you go too far there with those heartfelt concerns about the naive ignorance of others ...

...you might want to pause and consider that the "technical issues" you've listed are the very ones that have plagued the designers of CD players since the inception of digital audio - so if you reckon that they degrade sound significantly please hasten to throw your cd player out immediately!!! It may interest you to know that there are worthwhile arguments that the buffer/packet transfer protocols inherent in streamed audio may well be superior (in relation to the introduction of jitter) to reading data off a disc in real time - as too_tall has already alluded to in his post.

So while CD could certainly be considered a "mature" technology it's hardly a perfect one - and I'll bet any designer/engineer will tell you that it's an ongoing process to better the results...and furthermore - any half decent DAC will contain circuitry which attempts to address these digital artefacts in the same way a reasonable CD player would.

I for one am not crapping on the idea of CD replay - merely the nonsensical notion that streaming your digital audio is an inherently inferior solution. At one point I too disregarded the trend towards PC based archiving & playback as part and parcel of the whole "convenience over quality"/throwaway MP3 scene but in the last while there's been a concerted response from the industry at large to provide quality product geared towards this growing market. Is it perfect yet? No. But in my view it's progressed to the point where there's no viable reason why even a modest digital front end, such as my own, shouldn't match (or even better) a traditional CD player at it's given price point.

In any event - I listen to music to enjoy it, so while all this jargon/technical bollocks matters up to a point - the music either sounds right or it doesn't. And I reckon it does...

[too_tall]

In any event - I listen to music to enjoy it, so while all this jargon/technical bollocks matters up to a point - the music either sounds right or it doesn't. And I reckon it does...

And this, after all, is why we spend a lot of money on hifi gear - to enjoy the music. Or it should be!.

But, enjoying the music requires easy access to that music, and this is where a music server of some description is far easier than CD - assuming its got a good interface. An area lots trip up and fall, hard.

[luckiestmanalive]

An interesting discussion, guys (as always). I'm comfortable that CD vs other digital playback quality is close enough now. The main difference I would like to change is the selection exercise - I find it wasy to scan a library of CDs while I seem to have much more trouble doing the same thing with my digital library. Its worse when you are looking at someone else's - you find an artist and even an album you'd like to hear only to find they only have only one or two songs (and they are never the ones you want to play).

[maxgate]

In my opinion CDs will not disappear for a long long time. The predictions about CDs demise are wrong. At JB hifi before Xmas the shop was packed and people were 12 deep in the queue. Sales figures have dropped because of downloads but people still want to buy something tangible.

Even (some) dealers with a well developed on-line presence are finding CD sales marginal. For example, Jazzis is based in the USA yet ships internationally. As the name suggests, he specializes in jazz but also has progressive and Canterbury Scene stock. Overnight he announced that he was liquidating all stock, with major discounts and (Enzers take note) FREE shipping anywhere in the world for orders of TEN or more items. The reason for the liquidation? I can't better the statement by the owner, Adam Baruch: 'The CD is disappearing as a format...' Here is his full statement:

'As announced earlier, I'm now liquidating the Jazzis Web Shop stock. Following ten and a half years of on-line activity, serving customers all over the world, it's time to accept the reality of the dying physical media. The CD is disappearing as a format and becoming more difficult to find, the Majors don't manufacture back catalogue and independent labels are closing. This sad reality directly influences the sales figures and as a result keeping a stock of CDs becomes completely unjustified economically.

The sale offers a massive 30 % discount on ALL ITEMS, including the already reduced Special Offers. Please note that the Special Offers are already reduced by 50 %, and now with the additional Sale discount, have a sensational and irresistible price tag!

Due to the increasingly difficult situation of the music industry and ever more limited availability of items, you can basically consider anything that you can find in stock as highly probable of either being already Out of Print or becoming Out of Print really soon. In other words, just grab anything you want as long as it's here!

Jazzis Web Shop is here:

https://www.jazzis.com/shop/default.asp?s=sls

Since many items are out of stock due to the incredibly difficult situation of the music industry, you can see all the items that are in stock here:

https://www.jazzis.com/shop/default.asp?s=instock

To go directly to the Browsing Center with many browsing options go here:

https://www.jazzis.com/shop/default.asp?s=browse

The Out of Print items are here:

https://www.jazzis.com/shop/default.asp?s=oop

The Special Offers are here:

https://www.jazzis.com/shop/default.asp?s=special

Here are some important pointers about ordering during the Sale period:

1. On the site you can see the DISCOUNTED prices (in addition to the regular prices) to avoid any confusion. So now you see how much you pay for the item with the discount applied.

2. Many items get quickly out of stock. A strict First Come First Served (FCFS) policy is always observed, therefore it's recommended to make your orders ASAP, and before the items you want get out of stock.

3. It is recommended to check the "Order History" to see what actually was shipped to you. Although the stock availability indication is updated automatically, when many people are ordering simultaneously it is possible to actually order an item that someone else just bought the last copy of.

4. Please remember that orders of 10 or more items give you FREE SHIPPING anywhere in the world. That is another considerable discount and therefore even if your order is short of 10 items it actually pays to order some of the Special Offers items to get to an order of 10 items (and get free shipping), which means that you basically get these additional items completely for free.

I thank all my loyal customers and friends for their continuous support.

Have Fun!

Adam Baruch

Jazzis Web Shop
https://www.jazzis.com/shop/

Adam's Site
http://www.adambaruch.com/'

[Michael Wong]

Even (some) dealers with a well developed on-line presence are finding CD sales marginal. For example, Jazzis is based in the USA yet ships internationally.

USA not Israel as suggested in the website's info ?

Is shipping ex-Israel reliable ?

[maxgate]

USA not Israel as suggested in the website's info ?

Is shipping ex-Israel reliable ?

Michael, you're right: Jazzis is based in Israel, I incorrectly identified the business as American because the site quoted in US dollars - although that might be because of my computer preference settings. I'm too non-tech to know.

As for shipping ex-Israel, that troubled country has nearly twice the population of New Zealand, a superior infrastructure, and ranks well ahead of New Zealand on international economic indicators. For instance, it is second only to the US in the number of its start-up companies. So your question could be rephrased: 'Gee, is shipping ex-NZ reliable - isn't it just a few rocks with sheep on them?'

[Owen Young]

As usual, there are always pros & cons with ea & every approach.

Ripping CDs in your computer drive has the advantage of extracting a more 'exact audio copy' of the music on the CD because, unlike a CDP, the computer drive does not need to read the CD in real time. It can take as long as it likes to read & reread ea sector of the music data numerous times & depending on the extraction software setup, make decisions on error correction.

That said, I like the Less Is More philosophy & have yet to be convinced about computer based music playback. :)
The whole it's just 1s and 0s arguement shows a naive ignorance of the technical issues. A computer will never make a good transport because of any number of reasons. The main ones are cheap dirty power supplies, RFI/EMI, jitter to name a few.

In my opinion CDs will not disappear for a long long time. The predictions about CDs demise are wrong. At JB hifi before Xmas the shop was packed and people were 12 deep in the queue. Sales figures have dropped because of downloads but people still want to buy something tangible.

[Michael Wong]

Michael, you're right: Jazzis is based in Israel, I incorrectly identified the business as American because the site quoted in US dollars - although that might be because of my computer preference settings. I'm too non-tech to know.

As for shipping ex-Israel, that troubled country has nearly twice the population of New Zealand, a superior infrastructure, and ranks well ahead of New Zealand on international economic indicators. For instance, it is second only to the US in the number of its start-up companies. So your question could be rephrased: 'Gee, is shipping ex-NZ reliable - isn't it just a few rocks with sheep on them?'

Larger population, superior infrastructure etc. never stopped the occasional patchy delivery from the USA, UK etc.

;)

So to re-phrase...
Have you dealt with this particular seller before ?

[maxgate]

Larger population, superior infrastructure etc. never stopped the occasional patchy delivery from the USA, UK etc.

;)


So to re-phrase...
Have you dealt with this particular seller before ?

No I haven't ordered from Jazzis. I have had an enjoyable exchange about Miles Davis vinyl listings. Adam Baruch replies to queries overnight, with humour and grace.

[Dunnersfella]

USA not Israel as suggested in the website's info ?

Is shipping ex-Israel reliable ?

Reliable shipping?
My main concern would be suffering a seizure after having to navigate that abomination of a website! Holy cow... it looks like it was dragged directly out of 1992.

[Willie]

Back when I was at school a very long time ago, I remember being shown a graph of the planets population explosion. It was an exponential graph showing a time about now that there would be no standing room for people on the planet. At the time as a 9 years old I though.... " That is a very simplistic view of the future"

And that is how I feel about the demise of CD. Many have predicted it's demise and it is still here. The really amazing thing is vinyl sales are on the increase.

CD is NOT DEAD!

[Ta Moko]

Looking back at the start of this thread... the OP wondered about music reproduction post CD. He mused - correctly I think, that CD's dominance as the primary delivery method of digital music was likely coming to an end - yet, as is often the case in the world of "serious" audio opinions are sharply polarized.

As I write this I'm listening to some very recent 24 bit FLAC downloads purchased from the Naim website in the background - and perhaps they're part of the answer in pointing towards a potential future after compact disc.

Clearly there's a long way to go - available selections of hi res music are limited to say the least with most catalogues offering little other than audiophile bollocks I can barely stand listening to, let alone pay good money for. Making matters worse - services making product offer to NZ are pretty thin on the ground too.

And yet listening to this limited hi res selection (of largely acoustic material) I'm struck by how noticeably more fulsome and powerful bass sounds, as if digital audio had finally found sufficient "bits" to sound genuinely rich in tone. Likewise midrange sounds less lean or more natural if you prefer, and treble remarkably sweet, free of artificial zing.

But the biggest difference compared to 16 bit audio, to me anyway, is the sheer ease of presentation, so unconstrained & for lack of a better description "free breathing" ... yes, we've all heard that magical "disappearing speakers" trick, but this really is in another league. Listening to the 24 bit remaster of Antonio Forcione & Sabina Sciubba's "Meet me in London" is so good in this regard I could be convinced that I was listening to a system other than my own - taken as a whole it all sounded like something higher up the audio food chain.

Granted much of this will probably be of little interest to Joe Blogs so it remains to be see how 24 bit audio filters into the mainstream, perhaps it might be just the "novelty" required to kick start the music buying public's interest in a sort of "next big thing" type of way?

Back in the audiophile realm though this arguably has a far higher chance of "catching on" than SACD or HDCD ever did not least of all because it doesn't require an additional hardware purchase as the basic price of entry, possibly just a generous broadband cap given the size of the downloads!

And as for the resurgence in vinyl sales - it would be fair to claim that its recent popularity is, at least in part, thanks to the current trendy "retro cool" element it holds among early twenties hipsters... in other words it's fashionable, not a choice based on sound quality. And let's be honest CD was never quite as charming anyway so I'll eat my hat if there's a sudden resurgence in CD sales 20 years from now, but hey... who knows?

So for my money whether cd is dead, dying or on life support is immaterial - the possible future post silver disc (literally) sounds very promising indeed - count me in!

[Ernie]

No arguments that CD was only ever an interim format, however long it's been...

[Owen Young]

And as for the resurgence in vinyl sales - it would be fair to claim that its recent popularity is, at least in part, thanks to the current trendy "retro cool" element it holds among early twenties hipsters... in other words it's fashionable, not a choice based on sound quality.I'd give the Gen Y'ers more credit than that... I'd suggest that they like the music (quality & range, of that era), they like the format & packaging, and their ears are good enough to recognise the sound quality.

[Ernie]

There's water in both tanks. I have Gen X clients doing both vinyl and digital for convenience and cool. Streaming (Spotify) vs vinyl... no contest. 24/96 trumps the black circles.

[kaka]

The best CD material still beats the worst high def material, if the mastering is poor more definition isn't going to rescue it

The good high def material is excellent

[kaka]

Listening to the 24 bit remaster of Antonio Forcione & Sabina Sciubba's "Meet me in London" is so good in this regard ...

The Naim Antonio Forcione and Charlie Haden album is excellent - acoustic double bass and guitar.

[Ta Moko]

The Naim Antonio Forcione and Charlie Haden album is excellent - acoustic double bass and guitar.

Agreed, I did check that one out.

For anyone who hasn't seen this already... an interesting link below re: Apple pushing for 24 bit - encouraging to know that mainstream outlets are already looking into this. Obviously for them the primary interest is commercial, but at least it's heading in the right direction - also an interesting footnote: re vinyl quality/popularity.

http://www.mobiledia.com/news/82764.html

[kaka]

Apple pushing for 24 bit ....

That was close to a year ago - has anything been said subsequently?

[Ta Moko]

Dunno for sure mate, this one's dated a bit later... from the Linn site... for whatever that's worth?

http://blogs.linn.co.uk/giladt/2011/11/apple-opens-the-way-to-24-bit-itunes.php

[kaka]

Now that is an interesting read - that could be the final nail in the CD distribution chains.

The usual issue will front of course - vendors doing an upsample rather than going back to the masters. High Def tape transfers achieves wonders using late 50s/early 60s master tapes, so it can be done