Chalk one up for the believers

[Coops]

I had a fella in the shop the other day who was reading me the riot act about how cable cannot make any difference ... its just a scam to make money etc etc, so I removed the price tags from 3 different sets of interconnects & asked him to take them home & do some blind testing with them.

He returned several days later & told me his findings .... they all sounded better than what he had been using..... he was very surprised at this for a start. He then went on to relay which had sounded like what & when I asked which had sounded the best he pointed to the most expensive cable of the 3 and said it had been the best, with a clearer sound & more defined bass.

We have a convert .... :eek:

[Michael Jones]

Nice story Coops.

The part that got me was this:


I had a fella in the shop the other day who was reading me the riot act

This ties in with my experience. People who are anti cables get so intensely angry about it. Anyone would think that their mother had just been insulted!

I've never been able to work out why cables drive these people so crazy. If you insist that audiophile cables can't make any difference, then simply don't buy them. There's no point in bursting a blood vessel over something that doesn't even interest you.

[Bevan J]

It is my honest opinion that anybody that is unable to hear the differences between cables or does not believe in the break-in phenomenon must be tone deaf. It is the only logical explanation surely!? :D

[Coops]

Yeah some of them get pretty fired up. University proffessor types are always the best, standing there in their standard issue uniform of ill fitting, nearly worn through dress pants with complimenting $25 white sand shoes from Dowsons or if its summer ... the timeless combo of walk shorts with long socks & roman sandals, a 15 year old Casio digital watch with aftermarket velcro wristband and of course the obligatory umkempt beard. Frothing at the mouth because you dared to suggest that the one or two hundred dollars they wanted to spend "upgrading" their 20 year old system might be best spent on cable. :rolleyes:

Gotta love em :cool:

[sarge]

Quite coincidentally I went into a shop in Auckland last week and got the old spiel about cables sounding the same if they have the capacitance and inductance, blah,blah,blah. Isn't it just possible we don't know everything there is to know about everything? It's like you're a dumbarse if you even dare to suggest cables might sound different.

A similar thing occurred to me about the 20 hz to 20khz sampling frequency for cd. Is it possible that the frequencies "chopped off" interact with the audible frequencies in some way? Perhaps this might account for the lack of "hifi-ness" in many digital systems?. According to some so-called experts it doesn't make any difference.

Grrrrrrr....those academic professor types rip my shorts, all their knowledge consists of what they've read in books, rather than practical experience. Someone of academic importance has stated such and such is true, so it must be. Sometimes the conventional wisdom isn't so wise.....

[Boris]

Careful Coops, 500+ members here now. Several 'academics' amongst them I suspect :)

[Lech]

Originally posted by Bevan J
It is my honest opinion that anybody that is unable to hear the differences between cables or does not believe in the break-in phenomenon must be tone deaf. It is the only logical explanation surely!? :D
Or maybe their hifi system is superior because it's better than others at dealing with the various electrical properties of different cables? I'd argue that if differences can be heard between interconnects in a simple hifi set-up (eg: CDP + preamp + power-amp + speakers), then there are other more important problems that haven't been solved (which is hopefully only due to the price bracket, not manufacturers' stupidity).

A cd player might not have adequate filtering on its output to reduce switching noise from its internal Delta Sigma DACs (well into the MHz range). Some of that noise may be amplified by the interconnecting cables, in the same way that an antenna amplifies a signal from a radio transmitter. The preamp, having only been designed to work best below 20kHz, might be seriously impaired if it doesn't deliberately and significantly reduce the RF noise at its input. Its noise-floor and distortion could be raised so that it's audible. Interestingly, some of that "noise" may directly relate to the audio in a deterministic way, so it could be mistaken for "extra detail being revealed" or "fine micro-dynamics that couldn't be heard before".

Though I can't quantify this theory with numbers or measurements, to me it's at least something that makes sense. On the one hand it may provide an explanation for "why should cables sound different?", but on the other hand it can't explain any outrageous price differences, and shows that money should be spent elsewhere first.

As for break-in effects, I don't know how you could eliminate the likelihood of an "unfair test". I've done a few "before and after" listening tests myself, and I consider them to be laughably unreliable if there is anything more than a few seconds' gap between listening. After a minute or so, I'd struggle to remember what my hifi sounds like, and instead I'd have to remember what my emotions and opinions were at the time to make a comparison. After a week or even just a day the actual sound would have been long forgotten. I don't how I could remember even the emotions and "first impressions" and other such unreliable waffle to make a comparison.

So why should I believe someone when they say that they left their new hardware idling for 2 weeks, and it sounds much better now than fresh out of the box? It might have been a full moon the first time s/he listened, and was in a bad mood. Or they might have just driven back (in a noisy vehicle) from half a day's shopping in (a noisy) town, and their ear-drums wouldn't transmit anything below 30dB that day.

Lech

[Craig F]

Originally posted by Lech
Or maybe their hifi system is superior because it's better than others at dealing with the various electrical properties of different cables? I'd argue that if differences can be heard between interconnects in a simple hifi set-up (eg: CDP + preamp + power-amp + speakers), then there are other more important problems that haven't been solved (which is hopefully only due to the price bracket, not manufacturers' stupidity)Lech

Or maybe they just f@#king well sound different Lech. Do you, of an evening sit down and really genuinely enjoy watching the lines on your scopes, is that what brings you pleasure? Surely the test of food is in the tasting, the test of wine is in the drinking, and the test of hi-fi is in the listening. You may not be able to tell the difference between a good and bad wine, but does that make irrelevant the ability of Masters Of Wine to tell region, variety, year and vineyard of many, many different wines?

Get your head out of your manuals and listen to a variety of cables from $10 to $10000 on a system that you believe is well designed and then tell me that they don't sound different.

Cheers,

Craig.

[PartTimer]

At the risk of coming across as a dummy, can someone tell me what ABX means? I know DBT is Double Blind Testing, but ABX?

Personally, I'm glad the DBT/ABX forum has been christened. Ive seen a lot of one on one comparisons in the "general forum", and thought they more corectly belonged in this one.

My five cents on cables, which most people seem to agree with, but hasnt been mentioned, is this. Theres no point in getting cables of a much higher grade than the CDP Amp etc components. Good cables dont make the sound 'better', they simply carry a 'cleaner' signal. Alright, a bit over simplified, but hey.

If you have a three thousand dollar stereo, in my opinion, you may well not be able to hear the difference between a $200 interconnect and one costing $600. (Unless you are comparing copper with silver that is.)

[Michael Jones]

Originally posted by PartTimer
At the risk of coming across as a dummy, can someone tell me what ABX means? I know DBT is Double Blind Testing, but ABX?

Unlike DBT, ABX is not an acronym.

ABX testing is where you have two subjects (A and B). You switch between the two subjects and X, which is either A or B. Your job is to decide if X is A or B.

The theory behind ABX testing in audio is that, if differences can really be heard between components (A and B) then the person being tested should be able to tell whether X is A or B.

In practise, people using ABX testing don't seem to be able to tell the difference between almost anything. Proponents of ABX testing declare that this is because most reported hi-fi differences are imaginary. Opponents of ABX testing suggest that there is something inherently wrong with the ABX methodlogy.

[Coops]

"After a minute or so, I'd struggle to remember what my hifi sounds like"

Ha ha .... Lech must be a goldfish :p

[Lech]

So Coops, for how long would you be able to repeat a coherent set of sounds in your mind that you had heard earlier? Together with all the details and nuances and and other musical subtleties?

I bet that people sometimes have a "crisis of confidence" when they do an ABX test. They listen to a musical extract on two different pieces of hardware, think "easy-peasy, I can hear the difference", and as soon they hear the same extract a third time, they think "oh crap, how am I supposed to remember the exact difference of a tiny little detail!?" So they go back to repeat the same thing, and this time: "phew! B does sound different from A, but hang on! X doesn't sound like either of them, so what's going on?! There must be something wrong with the test!" And anyone who has overseen some ABX tests might well be chuckling right now and saying: "tell me about it!"

How about a series of ABXc tests, where X is in fact C, and is slightly different from A and B, but the listener doesn't know that. Conduct enough of these tests and you'll be able to go through a process of elimination to pick out various things that the listener can't hear.

Lech

[Coops]

:confused:
:confused:
:confused:
:confused:
:confused:
:confused:
:confused:


& finally :confused:

How did you get from 'goldfish memory' to your subjective theories on what may or may not happen in an ABXc (if indeed there is such a thing) test ??

[Toxicbass]

if only all hifi stores would lend me a student some cables to try out!!

Woah post #1 for dbt/abx forum!:D

[RodM]

Build your own - plenty of useful guff on the internet. Hours of entertainment, and WAY cheaper than buying. Good place to start is http://www.tnt-audio.com/int.html

[otisredding]

Whatever the science, I have heard the difference reasonable interconnects can make over cheap ones. I've played a mono recording through two different cables at the same time (Monster IL400Mk2 versus an 'out of the box' IC) one connected left and one right then I shifted the balance control left and right (and repeated it with cables reversed) - the difference esp. in the bass definition and body was frankly astounding. Try it - there is virtually no gap in time between switching (yes I know the speakers may sound slightly different but not THAT different) and I know I knew whcih cable was which but I swear I could EASILY hear the difference in a blind test. As for the difference between two different quality cables - I'm not sure I could tell you which was 'better' but I could tell you what my ears enjoyed more - and that's the whole point surely?? :cool:

[rogger]

i have the invidious pleasure of auditioning some rather expensive interconnects at the moment. - audio note Vx.
i have been running slinkylink interconnects in my bi amped plinius sa50 system, and unfortunately have had the opportunity to try out the AN Vx interconnects.
make a difference??
after 3 weeks of using them i really am thinking about selling my car.
also , to provide a little balance, some info from the other end of the financial scale.
my son in law has a 31/2k rack system and i gave him a $60.00 kimber pbj interconnect to try.... he loves it. and now he's also on the road - tweaking, trying allsorts to get the most out of his gear.
i seriously believe that interconnects, speaker cables and power chords should - for practical purposes - be considered as components , not accessories. they have different characteristics and qualities that can match or mar the other components.
hope this contributes to the thread.

rogger

[Boris]

A great topic that never reaches an agreeable outcome :D

Interesting link below if you have the time to read through it. Covers everything from speaker cables to power leads to amp design.

A word of warning, don't bother if Lechs posts tend to raise your blood pressure at times. I think he may have written it with a bit of input from Ayn :D (just kidding folks).

http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm


I kinda wish I hadn't stumbled on to it myself. It was quite by accident in another mostly unrelated forum post. I'm currently doing a demo on very expensive Wireworld interconnect & speaker cable. Couldn't tear myself away from the stereo until midnight last night because it just sounded SO BLOODY FANTASTIC!!! Turns out I was imagining it :mad:


Cheers, B.

[Craig F]

From the Silversmith Audio site (stunning cables by the way):

"Audiophiles have hotly debated the existence of audible differences in wires for years. Engineers and non-engineers alike, on both sides, have latched on to pseudo-scientific papers and/or improperly conducted listening tests to "prove" their arguments. Objectivists continue to claim that if it can not be measured, it can not be heard, and subjectivists, trusting their own senses, continue to believe that one day scientists will measure those differences that they do hear. In the last couple of years, impressive scientific studies have been conducted which have measured some differences in wire performance, including directionality, lending some credence to the subjectivist's camp. While the debate rages on, it is interesting to note, that the engineering knowledge needed to explain exactly why cables do make a difference, and accurately predict what a particular cable design will "sound" like, has been available for decades. Unfortunately for audiophiles, it was not until as recently as 1985 that someone actually applied that knowledge to the world of audio cabling. To this day, the Essex Echo - Unification Tracks 1-4, by Malcolm Hawksford, remains the single greatest work on the subject of audio cabling."

It's a very big download and a physically difficult read due to the image quality. Add to that it's a bit technical but those who are interested can have a look here:

http://www.essex.ac.uk/ese/research/audio_lab/malcolms_publications.html#Journal

The link is down near the bottom of the page.

Cheers,

Craig.

[Michael Jones]

Originally posted by Craig F
"...it was not until as recently as 1985 that someone actually applied that knowledge to the world of audio cabling. To this day, the Essex Echo - Unification Tracks 1-4, by Malcolm Hawksford, remains the single greatest work on the subject of audio cabling."

Malcolm Hawksford has produced some interesting work (if my memory serves me correctly) on cables for Hi-Fi News. I suspect that these are the articles mentioned.

As well, Ben Duncan (again in Hi-Fi News) showed a measurement technique that correlated the reported sound of various cables to a particular measurement (memory is a bit fuzzy here). Unfortunately, this article seems to be unavailable on the web.

But what I find most interesting is that those people who are most adament that cables can not and do not make any difference either do not know about these articles or choose to ignore them. To me this suggests that the cable skeptics are more interested in keeping their existing mindset intact than exploring audio reality.

[Boris]

Getting off science and back to the real world for a moment. A question for the music experts like Craig & Michael.

While testing new cables, and 'imagining' that I had a wider soundstage and more precise imaging, I paid particular attention to these effects last night. While running through a few female jazz CD's it struck me that a majority of the music was from the left hand side across to the centre, often with very little from the right eg. vocalist with piano centre stage, bass left and back a little, maybe drums back behind centre or left. Would it be 'normal' for quite a few modern CD's to be recorded this way? The imaging was so precise I wouldn't have thought it was a system problem. Using a Plinius integrated so no issue with any balance wizardry in an AVR or anything.

If you think it's really wierd, it could be a room interaction issue. There's a quite different 'landscape' on either side of the room that I could expand on if you think there may be a problem.

Also, a related issue on imaging. While listening to a lot more music than usual it also struck me that some imaging is just plain bollocks. On a good recording (ignoring my query above) you can 'see' where everyone on stage is performing. BUT, on some recordings there are musicians seemingly popping up anywhere eg. a guitarist plays briefly at the back right and then stops. Now I can't see a guy standing there to play for 20 seconds on the whole track. Are some recordings not mixed to represent live artists on a stage?

Sorry if this query is stupid or some of my terminology is wrong. Despite spending far to much on my system, I'm not actually much of a music expert. I'm just curious, I don't usually dissect music like this, but I couldn't stop thinking about it in the end. Do I have a system issue, or is this the way some CD's are?


Cheers guys,

B.

[Craig F]

Originally posted by Boris
If you think it's really wierd, it could be a room interaction issue. There's a quite different 'landscape' on either side of the room that I could expand on if you think there may be a problem.

Try changing your interconnects over left for right and play the same discs again. If suddenly the sound is mainly coming from the right then it's on the disc.


Originally posted by Boris
Also, a related issue on imaging. While listening to a lot more music than usual it also struck me that some imaging is just plain bollocks.

When you read about how most recordings are made you realise that most of the "imaging" is placed by in the mix by the engineers well after the fact. I enjoy imaging a lot but I accept that with the music I listen too it's part of the hi-fi experience rather than high fidelity reproduction of the event. (I've always wondered why it's so damn hard to record a drum set without having it stretch right across the front wall of my room.)

Cheers,

Craig.

[Craig F]

Originally posted by Craig F
Try changing your interconnects over left for right and play the same discs again. If suddenly the sound is mainly coming from the right then it's on the disc.

I should have said change the interconnects at either your cd player or amp, not both, but I'm sure you worked out what I was getting at.

Cheers

Craig.

[Boris]

Originally posted by Craig F
I should have said change the interconnects at either your cd player or amp, not both, but I'm sure you worked out what I was getting at.

Cheers

Craig.
Yep I did thanks Craig. In hindsight my question was pretty stupid so I can understand you wanting to clarify that for me! Will try it this week sometime just to see how music sounds back to front.

Have you done much experimenting with cables over the years? I note from the other thread that you are using Slinkylinks speaker cable (you say 'unshielded', one of the reasons your lifters have worked so well?). Do you use the same interconnect? Do you think there are any benefits from 'matching' cables right through a system? Why did you go to silver, I have heard that it can either make or break a system? Do you believe in after-market power cords?

Hope you don't mind the questions, I am on a bit of a cable 'binge' at the moment. It would be nice to have some sensible discussion about them without the 'non-believers' shouting snake oil, snake oil - even though I'm the idiot who added the 'science' link :mad:

I would be interested in the experiences of anyone using expensive cables. What type of construction, price range, what did they add to your system?.......And PLEASE, no comment from the anti-cables fraternity. That has been done to death many times and never reaches agreement. I would just like to have a chat with people who use good cables and hear a bit about how they chose them.


Cheers, B.

[Michael Jones]

Originally posted by Boris
And PLEASE, no comment from the anti-cables fraternity. That has been done to death many times and never reaches agreement. I would just like to have a chat with people who use good cables and hear a bit about how they chose them.

Then you should be discussing this in the hi-fi section. The DBT/ABX section is designed to confine the comments you don't want to one specific section of the forum. By posting in the DBT/ABX section you're opening yourself up to the very comments that you don't want...

[Boris]

Originally posted by AudioEnz
Then you should be discussing this in the hi-fi section. The DBT/ABX section is designed to confine the comments you don't want to one specific section of the forum. By posting in the DBT/ABX section you're opening yourself up to the very comments that you don't want...
Noted Michael, I'll consider myself suitably chastised :eek:

Can't really see the point in changing from a perfectly good thread on a technicality though :confused:

Maybe I didn't explain what I meant very well, and I guess shouldn't be telling people what they can or can't post anyway. I just didn't think it would make for an interesting forum discussion if all we got was "physics 101 tells me.....". I'm not trying to knock out one side of the argument. Love to hear from people who did serious testing of their $200 cables compared to $2000 ones and heard no difference. I was just more interested on this occasion to hear from people who settled on some higher priced cables and what path led them to that outcome.

Why not just remove this whole section? This is the only thread there has ever been, and even then you would have to say it is not strictly in context. Obviously the intention was to confine "boring everyone silly" to one small section of the forum, but history suggests that has not been necessary (only 1 thread). How about changing it to something like Audio Theory and Setup, to discuss cables, power cords, speaker placement, sub-woofer setup, room treatment etc.? There may be less repetition (boredom) in the general discussion threads if all the setup questions were in one section. Would be much easier for all the newcomers to find an answer to their problem without asking an often repeated question.

This is not a critisism Michael, great forum. Maybe you could do a quick Poll on the above and see what people think?

Cheers, B.

[Craig F]

Originally posted by Boris
Have you done much experimenting with cables over the years? I note from the other thread that you are using Slinkylinks speaker cable (you say 'unshielded', one of the reasons your lifters have worked so well?). Do you use the same interconnect? Do you think there are any benefits from 'matching' cables right through a system? Why did you go to silver, I have heard that it can either make or break a system? Do you believe in after-market power cords?

Hello Boris,

I haven't done a lot with cables actually. I started with Chord Company i/c's and Naim speaker cables. I kept them until I sold my Naim integrated and at that point I moved to Audioquest Gibraltar speaker cable and Audioquest Python i/c's. Fairly soon after this on a trip home I compared the Slinkylink i/c's to the Audioquest ones and I was sold. I sold my Audioquest cables and had enough to buy two pair of SL i/c's and 3m pair of biwire speaker cable. (The AQ's weren't cheap but were well beaten by the SL's.)

While I believe that cables do change the sound of system I'm not convinced that they can turn a poor system into a great (or even good) one or vice versa. You'd do better getting you room and power supply sorted properly before moving onto cables. I would suggest that $1000 could get most rooms sounding pretty good which makes the listening experience much, much better. Or you could spend $1000 on cables and make a bit of difference here and a bit there.

As for silver making or breaking a system - I don't buy that at all. Perhaps there're some bad silver cables out there that sound thin and horrible which has given all of them a bad reputation but if you look at virtually every cable makers range you'll find those at the top are silver.

Expensive cables - I've heard a few in the context of systems but as for direct comparison with the SL's the best I've heard are Silversmith Silver cables. They utterly and totally made the SL's sound out of their depth. The Silversmith speaker cables are particularly interesting as they have "a single conductor per polarity - an ultra-thin ribbon of pure silver, seamless from end to end, without traditional solder or crimp connectors, and encased in an extremely thin wall Teflon tube system designed to maintain a primarily air dielectric." Imagine a ruler inside a hose and you get the idea of how the Silversmith speaker cables are set up. The ribbon of silver is cut out to fit into binding posts at each end so there's no solder and no connectors of any sort to cause problems. They're a bit fragile (the Palladium ones even more so), very expensive (US$3850 for a single wire 12 foot pair in silver or US$17300 for the same in Palladium) but they sound simply wonderful.

Cheers,

Craig.

P.S. I haven't tried power cables or filters yet but watch this space as I'll be trying some in the couple of months.

[Boris]

Thanks Craig, interesting thoughts as always.

Link below to a recent Slinkylinks review which may be of some interest - as far as reviews go!

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_3/slinkylinks-speaker-cables-7-2004.html


Cheers, B.

[Michael Jones]

Originally posted by Boris
Obviously the intention was to confine "boring everyone silly" to one small section of the forum

Yes, that's correct.

I've seen too many audio forums and discussion groups destroyed by small groups of people who want to turn every discussion into a DBT discussion. I am determined that this will not happen here.

[Ayn Marx]

Originally posted by AudioEnz

I've never been able to work out why cables drive these people so crazy.

They go crazy because, like all true believers thay desparatley want to live in and believe in a universe in which everything is as certain and as simple as OHM's law.
Having said that I'm no longer into cable swapping as such. From my persepective it seems different cables act as over priced filters. It's cheaper, more predictable and more flexible to fiddle with the signal in other domains, if you feel the need. All of this assumes the use of cables that have electrical characteristics suffient to the job.

[Ayn Marx]

Originally posted by Ayn Marx
They go crazy because, like all true believers thay desperately want to lbelieve in a universe in which everything is as certain and as simple as OHM's law.
Having said that I'm no longer into cable swapping as such. From my persepective it seems different cables act as over priced filters. It's cheaper, more predictable and more flexible to fiddle with the signal in other domains, if you feel the need. All of this assumes the use of cables that have electrical characteristics suffient to the job.

Most do.
Artsy Fartsy cables that have zobel networks built into little attached black boxes are another story. In such cases it's not even the cable causing the effect we hear.

[Toxicbass]

Originally posted by Ayn Marx
They go crazy because, like all true believers thay desparatley want to live in and believe in a universe in which everything is as certain and as simple as OHM's law.
Having said that I'm no longer into cable swapping as such. From my persepective it seems different cables act as over priced filters. It's cheaper, more predictable and more flexible to fiddle with the signal in other domains, if you feel the need. All of this assumes the use of cables that have electrical characteristics suffient to the job.

My problem with subjectivism is not what it is,but what it encourages - its the 'high end' cable manufacturers dream.So this bubble cannot be burst -$$$,$$$,$$$

Until i get enough $ together to do some cable switching(i require a decent system first),i cant say from experience. But its certainly interesting at the least.

You could actualy give up the testing (and be alot more restful)and just be of the opinion that:

Stuff reality(since we cant measure differences),all that matters is the perception

Life is just perception anyway,how often do we actualy know truth?

[Toxicbass]

On a related note, John curl is mentioned in the essex audio file mentioned above.

at diyaudio.com,he looked silly after trying to take some measurements of cables,without realising his measurements were not reproducable due to using a distorting spectrum analyser.

-no one is infallible.I have no faith in humankind to reveal the truth all of the time..

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=23440&highlight=


http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=24582&highlight=


http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23440


http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=26570&highlight=

[PartTimer]

TB. "Stuff reality(since we cant measure differences),all that matters is the perception". ??? In hifi perspective, you appear to be supporting 'colouration'. Or have I misinterpreted your comment?

[rogger]

Stuff reality(since we cant measure differences),all that matters is the perception

Life is just perception anyway,how often do we actualy know truth?

-no one is infallible.I have no faith in humankind to reveal the truth all of the time..

My problem with subjectivism is not what it is,but what it encourages - its the 'high end' cable manufacturers dream.So this bubble cannot be burst -$$$,$$$,$$$

the above extracts are from the most recent posts on this thread.
the common denominator to this thread is an apologetic stance taken by those who would like to believe in what they hear/listen to and don't consider themselves to be too clued up.
this is matched by those who have very little sensory perceptive confidence and consider themselves to be a bit academic and therefore just a touch clever.
i shall put myself [ seeing as how i have indirectly labelled several members ] in a 3rd frame of reference.
i rely on my senses. i recognise where they serve me well and also where they do not. - through experience .
i confidently integrate sensory perception - my only contact with the world around me - with a functioning analytical brain.
i do not see scientific method as my arbiter of truth.
i see scientific method as a useful investigatory tool, but not the only tool.
god! if scientific method ruled supreme we would still live on a flat earth. apparently this idea is still able to be proved....scientifically and with a touch of cleverness.
those who enjoy the cut and thrust of debate but who have little interest in attaining an outcome or understanding of the subject under discussion will use convenient words to encompass ideas and philosophies and thereby render those ideas and philosophies impotent.
i am not one of those.
now then to the chase -
as i move towards that sublime state of bliss that listening to wonderful music can give i am compelled to try to make the experience as involving as possible.
that results in upgrading all my components as they [individually] are found to be insufficient to my requirements.

i entered the world of high end audio a mere 2 years ago, and inadvertantly. - a system without a decent equaliser wasn't worth considering.
a friend gave me $6k of second hand gear to listen to for a month or so - i was in the market for a good hi fi up to $4k.
so began the quest.
i am now in the possession of

cd player - audio note 3.1x
pre - audio note m3
amps - 2x plinius sa50's mk3
speakers - jamo concert 11's
interconnects- audio note vx
speaker cables - slinky link
power chords - eichmann x4
dedicated power supply.

the most recent upgrade is vx interconnects - cost $3k +. worth it????? you are so right! the slinkylink interconnects i had were a great improvement on what i had before but have been far surpassed in performance - ie contribution to the sound/msic presentation.
i have further development in mind for the system and intend to pursue it ... and little by little i am getting closer to that harmonised, balanced , clean and ultimately therapeutic sound system.
the point of all this is ,
trust yourself . what you hear is what exists. if something expensive sounds better, is desirable, then either buy it , or forget it....and go on to something else. don't moan , or bag whatever it is, or make up some pseudo rationale to justify why you won't purchase it.
life is too short.


rogger

[JamesB]

Originally posted by Toxicbass
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=23440&highlight=


http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=24582&highlight=


http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23440


http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=26570&highlight=

What a marathon!

[Boris]

Originally posted by rogger
...trust yourself . what you hear is what exists. if something expensive sounds better, is desirable, then either buy it , or forget it....and go on to something else. don't moan , or bag whatever it is, or make up some pseudo rationale to justify why you won't purchase it.
life is too short.
rogger
That would have to be the best 'summing up' on this subject that I have read in a while. Agree totally rogger.

Cheers, B

[Boris]

Originally posted by rogger

the most recent upgrade is vx interconnects - cost $3k +. worth it????? you are so right! the slinkylink interconnects i had were a great improvement on what i had before but have been far surpassed in performance - ie contribution to the sound/msic presentation...

Totally agree again rogger.

I have recently upgraded from some fairly standard QED cables to Wireworld Polaris interconnect and speaker cables. Hideously expensive in the context of my overall modest system, although I got an offer too good to refuse from Listening Post Christchurch - a blatant plug but thanks guys! I have been developing my system with them for a couple of years, and was actually sniffing around for a new CDP or speakers. Suggestion was to address my cables first, the other items to follow once the basic 'infrastructure' was in place.

Did the cables make a difference TO ME - hell yes! Did every aspect of my system improve - hell yes! Is it all 'phsyo-accoustic' or whatever the term was - who the hell cares! I like them, I believe they made a difference, I could afford them (didn't need 2 kidneys anyway), I bought them and I'm happy :D May have actually saved me money, in the short term at least. I no longer have a desperate desire to upgrade my humble NAD C540 CDP, even though it's worth less than the interconnect. Running through a Plinius 9200 it now sounds fantastic, to my very humble standards anyway. I know it has its limitations and will upgrade next year, but at least for now I know it is race tuned and turbo charged to the max!

Some people get a kick out of proudly proclaiming that their homemade speaker wires sound just as good as very expensive branded products. Others get a kick out of having 'the best' that they can afford. Either way it's the same - having a personal feeling of pride and satisfaction in what you have. Something that brings a smile to your face. Something that you believe brings out the best in your system for a price that you are comfortable with. There is no need to knock the other side.

Cheers, B.

[Toxicbass]

Originally posted by JamesB
What a marathon!
Definately!!!!!!!! Its certainly not a small issue.

Rogger: you made a very clear and thoughtfull post.

My only difference is :
1. A magnitude less expenditure is possible-so only the most worthwhile things can be 'upgraded-the ones which i know distort the most.

2. I realise that to compare two products, i should test them fairly eg: keep everything constant while comparing(ABX testing is it not!),and also not knowing the identity of the device being tested,this would remove alot of bias,which i think is important.

Hopefully soon i can do a little testing.
(student)

Cheers all!

[PartTimer]

Well, theres some pretty clever people around and about in this here forum. Any of you as clever as the guy who is quoted at the bottom of the link here?
http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/breakin.html

Having read that quote, and considering the opinion expressed throughout that link, I wonder how long it will take before the "cables" topic comes up again?

[otisredding]

Originally posted by PartTimer


Having read that quote, and considering the opinion expressed throughout that link, I wonder how long it will take before the "cables" topic comes up again?

Yes, but Mr. Einstein wasn't talking about expensive cables was he? LOL. This thread says as much about the human condition (albeit slightly less concisely) as that quote..... :D

[rogger]

if you think about it, mr redding, the debate over cables - expensive v cheap v homemade, and conjecture of burn in/ break in pretty much illustrates a human condition, as you and mr einstein point out.
for further consideration....
the most polarised views are generally most loudly proclaimed.

those that are able to integrate both aspects, or at least the conjectural principles of the debate tend to get on with it, having benefitted from the debating process.

and slightly off the track [ but possibly not].....
have you considered the relationship between mr albert einstein and the character mr frank 'n' stein ??
some say they were brothers.

rogger

[rogger]

just one further point:
a friend of mine has just had his cables and interconnects "cooked" and is he happy????
my word, yes!!!
of course he's an audio phoole and doesn't know his own mind. but he does know when he has spent $20 well.
it won't surprise me if you don't hear from him.


rogger.

[Ayn Marx]

Originally posted by rogger
just one further point:
a friend of mine has just had his cables and interconnects "cooked" and is he happy????
my word, yes!!!

I have no way of knowing if cooking has any effect or not, never having cooked any cables myself or listened to cables well done or medium rare. The question that pops into my head, however, is what was happening to your friends objective (subjective?) yard stick while his/her cables were away getting cooked? Did he/she listen to other cables on his normal system? Did he/she not listen to any music at all? May I suggest that either of these could have an infuence on his/her perceptions when the cooked cables were re-installed. Notice I'm not saying that cooking causes no objective change, I have no way of knowing that; unless I get mine cooked and why would I when I'm already dining on what I experience as a very , very appetising menu?

[rogger]

Notice I'm not saying that cooking causes no objective change, I have no way of knowing that; unless I get mine cooked and why would I when I'm already dining on what I experience as a very , very appetising menu?



sounds good to me AYN. you're happy. that's it. whether you could be "happier" with cooked cables is conjecture until you have the experience.

happy listening.

at the moment i'm listening to annie lennox "bare".
always been a difficult cd for my system but now she's balanced, separated and clean.
my cables are uncooked, but they have burnt in.-----bliss.




rogger

[Toxicbass]

just one further point:
a friend of mine has just had his cables and interconnects "cooked" and is he happy????
my word, yes!!!
of course he's an audio phoole and doesn't know his own mind. but he does know when he has spent $20 well.
it won't surprise me if you don't hear from him.


rogger.

just borrow his cables,tell him you got them 'cooked' and see if he says the same.

Ayn can i borrow your cables to cook them? then you tell me how they sound when i return them-then il tell you if i had them cooked or not :)

Or likewise:)

Im glad people can discuss this in a professional and non childish way.

And it is true that many people are in the 'middleground' on this topic.

[Ayn Marx]

Originally posted by Toxicbass
Ayn can i borrow your cables to cook them? then you tell me how they sound when i return them-then il tell you if i had them cooked or not :)


I've given up playing with them apart from cleaning the contacts.

[rogger]

just borrow his cables,tell him you got them 'cooked' and see if he says the same.
toxic bass,



surely this has been done before.????

it makes too much sense.

thanks.

rogger.

[Toxicbass]

problems
- time delay
-Memory
-Expectancy


theres discussion on DIYAUDIO.com discussing how abx testing in itself,with small populations,looking for small differences between equipment,how its steered to produce a null result,meaning its actualy useless,but doesnt prove nor disprove anything

Id just love to setup a system,switch some gear to an audience,and see what they think is best at the end
:D

[rogger]

ther's another factor in all this that hasn't been considered , and thats quality of power supply.

the 'observation' of late night improvement to the performance of ones system can be questioned by the resolute among us as having subjective influences, ie tiredness, or a little too much muscle and mind relaxent administered.

however if you try times of low national power usage eg sunday mornings or indeed any day very [well to me anyway] early - 6 o clockish there is considerable observable improvement.


any thoughts?



rogger.

[Toxicbass]

any thoughts?

A few thoughts,alot of speculation,alot of pyscho acoustics,and no truth :p

The fact is amplifiers are designed so that power supplies reject noise.

No formal studies have been done that i know of on this,so to me theres no such thing as 'cleaner power supply causes nicer sound'

There could be,or not

My experience is that, my meagre system sounds equal all the time

Cheers!

[wysper]

good to see it took me a year to come up with this observation. A shame it isn't profound or definitive.

Just on the late night early morning listening thing.

Has anyone considered that it might not be about the power supply but more about the mood.

I like listening at night, I am more relaxed, it is dark, (funny how night tends to do that), and the house is quiet. Not quiet electrically but quiet sound and activity wise.

I susupect the same could be said for mornings, except I HATE mornings and would love to get them banned if I thought there was a chance.

So to sum up the rambling, is it in your head, the improvement at night thing?

wysper

(I wonder if it will be a year for the next response?)

[Toxicbass]

No no,your rational thinking doesnt work here[if so,why bother with science?]. It must be the electronics!

Subjectivism is easy,Objectivism is hard. Enough said!

[Ayn Marx]

Originally posted by wysper

Just on the late night early morning listening thing.

So to sum up the rambling, is it in your head, the improvement at night thing?



Why either/or? A number of factors can be at work simultaniously. At night your power supply may be less noisy AND your mood more receptive AND your domestic situation less noisy AND you've pulled the drapes closed which absorbs more room reflections AND the humidy may be lower etc. I'm sure we could add to the list if we really thought about it. Another seldom mentioned factor is that most of us will not only have a different mood/ attitude at night , we tend to play different music. Well, I know I do.
For instance , today I'm enjoying J J Cale & Peter Gabriel in the background and tonight it will be Bach cantatas.

[Toxicbass]

Now,we just have to find out which factors are real or not....:D
Its no real use since the subjectivists dont believe in abx,so therse no real point!

[Kevin]

I work in an area with an allegedly scientific background. The tyrrany of the double blind placebo controlled crossover randomised blah blah blah trial has not greatly advanced the cause. Real life bears little resemblance to the strictures of a trial and the information gained has to be interpreted in light of the current particular situation. There are few always and nevers.

Reductionism has had many triumphs (published) and many failures (not so often published).

The pathetic attempts to apply science to the subjective experience of music reproduction has served only to reinforce the rejection of ABX etc by the subjectivists. The objectivists are reinforced by the almost inevitable no difference outcomes that the pathetically underpowered testing results in.

My opinion - It is an art form underpinned by a little science. There exists a duality and ultimately a tautology which is why no doubt Michael has this section to avoid crapping threads.

Seasons best to you Toxic - you finished uni. or more to go?

Kevin

[Michael Jones]

Originally posted by Toxicbass
Now,we just have to find out which factors are real or not....:D
Its no real use since the subjectivists dont believe in abx,so therse no real point!
Using the word "belief" in reference to audio is very apt, Toxic. The proponents of ABX testing on audio have an evangelical belief in ABX testing. I simply ask them to prove that it works with audio. So far, none of the ABX proponents has been able to show that it does.


Originally posted by kevin
which is why no doubt Michael has this section to avoid crapping threads
I've included the rule of no DBT/ABX threads in any section but this one, as I've seen newsgroups and forums where the evangelical DBT proponents hijack every discussion topic in an attempt to convert it into a DBT rant. As this impedes communication and destroys a community feeling, I thought it best to correll such discussion off into an area where it can do no harm.

[rogger]

"just borrow his cables,tell him you got them 'cooked' and see if he says the same. " - toxicbass.


This reenergized topic has come at an opportune time for an illustration.
On Sunday an audiophool [nice to hear your opinion Ayn] mate came around with 3 new power cables. All the same except at different stages of 'cooking'. One had 200 hours under its belt , the next about 70 and the other one only 25 or so.
We used my cd player as the test piece as the most likely displayer of differences.
There is an added factor in that my mate has not yet put them into his system and has paid a jolly respectable amount of cash for them. ie has he bought a pup?......or not.
My cable we replaced was a well burned in ps audio xtreme plus.
For the sake of dramatics we tried the least 'cooked' first and used Eva Cassidy's Songbird as our test.
First with my ps audio cable then his .
The 25 hour cable was immediately consigned to the ' not up to it ' bin. PS Audio 1 new cables 0.
The 70 hour cable was about on par - 1 - 1.
My friend was by now not too happy... ruff ruff.
Along came 200 hour cable to save, and win the day. Totally sublime. He had tears in his eyes but I think that was mostly relief.
We tested bck and forth with my ps audio and there is no doubt. It - Blue Marble - blue lightning cable walked all over the ps audio - extra detail, air, presence, alive, bloody brilliant. Damn!
Mind you at $us500 circa I guess it should be? But as we know some do some don't.
I think Kevin, Toxic and Michael have made appropriate points and therein lies the delicacy of the subject. Zealots only polarise and confuse.
Suffice it to say my friend is a happy camper cooking away to his heart's delight, and I'm wondering where I'm going to get the cash to buy one too!
ABX - Boring?? definitely not .

rogger.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by Ayn Marx

For instance , today I'm enjoying J J Cale & Peter Gabriel in the background and tonight it will be Bach cantatas.

HELLO AYN

Great to hear from you. Craig and I were mourning your absence at lunch a week ago.

Kevin