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An interview with Tord Gustavsen

Second Time Lucky

By Craig Fenemor

January 2005

The Tord Gustavsen Trio quietly became known backing Silje Nergaard live and on record but last year they simply exploded into jazz lovers consciousness with the release of their debut ECM album, Changing Places. Universally applauded, the music was a combination of timeless melodies and great musicianship. Now their second album has hit the shelves and I thought I'd take the opportunity to ask Tord Gustavsen a few questions about The Ground and his general approach to music.

Talking Tord

CF: Second albums are notorious for tripping up artists, especially when your first album has been as well received as Changing Places. Did you approach The Ground any differently due to success of Changing Places or were you able to just start fresh again?

Tord Gustavsen: Quite a fresh start, I would say. But of course it is different doing a second album, having been so connected with what came out of the first one. Connected more in a musical sense than in the sense of being focused on the public’s and critics’ reactions, though. I really felt that we found something important on Changing Places, and I always have this urge to find something equally strong every time I play, which is not an easy task…

CF: To me at least there's a quite different feel to The Ground compared to Changing Places. More notes, bluesier influences amongst the gospel, at times more "swing" in a traditional sense. Was this a conscious decision or just how the songs and recording developed?

TG: I feel that the new recording - as well as our live playing these days - represents a twofold urge; towards a certain kind of fresh pensive openness, and at the same time paradoxically towards even more solid, sensuous foundations than before, in the “rootsy” elements of our (however abstract) blues and gospel core elements. The one can not exist without the other in this trio. To put it into slogans it’s about sky and earth, spirit and body, yin and yang, thinking and feeling...

Also, you are probably right, there are more notes this time. This wasn’t necessarily a conscious decision - our live playing is still very space-oriented most of the time. But the energy flowing at this studio session led us towards a little more friction between the instruments; more layers of sound on top of each other; and hence a little less of the very delicate, spacious counterpoint interplay that perhaps hallmarks Changing Places.

CF: How much of what's on the CD was written on paper and how much was improvised in the studio?

TG: Only the melodic and harmonic skeletons of the songs were written or pre-composed. Of course, some building blocks of arrangements, and some ideas of musical form were there from having played some of the songs in concerts already, but overall the individual parts and the interaction between us were very improvised.

CF: There seems to be a greater focus on Jarle’s drumming as opposed to the first album. Is this just me, was it planned, or did it just happen?

TG: Well, to me Jarle’s drumming is just as crucial on the first album. There, it was perhaps a more behind-the-surface virtuosity, but still essential for the overall sound of the trio. On The Ground he plays some more extroverted ideas, and a few more traditionally cymbal-driven patterns, thus displaying other aspects of his talent. He really is an astonishing musician, contributing existential presence and clarity and subtle groove to the music on every concert and session.

CF: I'm a lover of wine. The French have a notion of Terroir where the soil, and the aspect and environment of the vineyard can be tasted in the wine. Do you believe that the same concept can be applied to your music? How much of Norway, of your home, your environment can be gleaned from your music?

TG: It’s hard to tell. Of course, where you grow up affects your tastes and shapes your frame of references. But Norway is very much a part of the global community although on the outskirts of Europe. And as musicians we are a lot less geographically rooted than the grapevines… inspirations from the global cultural scene gained through traveling; through immigrants enriching our culture; through worldwide media; and of course by listening to music from all over the world, are just as crucial as the “soil” or the rootedness in a national culture. Still, I would think that the space of Norwegian rural environments, the darkness of our winters, and the connection to a heritage of folk music, might certainly account for something. All trio members live in the city, by the way, but I cherish the constant dialogue between urban life and the piece of nature just outside Oslo. This combination may be a special feature of Norwegian city life compared to living in even bigger cities.

Moreover, expanding the notion of “roots”, ones childhood’s musical experiences are of course crucial in shaping a musical self whether or not these experiences are “indigenous” to a certain nation or sub-culture, or part of a greater global cultural world. For me, this early stage musical forming had at least three very basic elements: the hymns in church; the lullabies and other comforting songs sung at home; and, crucially, the very playful musical activities my father engaged me in from infant stage onwards, in which improvisation at the piano came before playing the “correct” notes. I think on some level this can all be traced in my playing today. And it feels intensely meaningful to really dig into what my inner ear perceives as basic or “core” music, and use this in the more elaborate trio setting, hence also the movement towards “gospel” or hymnal qualities in our music already mentioned.

CF: Anthropologists suggest that the act of observing changes that which is observed. You've spent a lot of time observing, deconstructing, and reconstructing some of the more esoteric and ethereal aspects of jazz in general and improvisation specifically. (See Tords dissatation "The Dialectical Erotism of Improvisation" on www.tordg.no) How has this level of study affected your playing and writing styles?

TG: Well, as a player I can’t help but turning almost into a child again. My academic approaches will never be in the forefront of consciousness while playing. Still, reflecting systematically upon the processes and dilemmas of improvisation has given me a few mental tools usable in concerts, too. But these are not in any way “better” or “truer” than those of other musicians with less scholarly interests. It’s just my way of coming to terms with it all. And in our different ways we all engage in the always-ongoing internal dialogue between doing and understanding.

CF: Finally, Tomasz Stanko while expressing his admiration for and great pleasure in working with Manfred Eicher, said that in the studio only strong people can handle their fear of him. What's been your experience of the great man?

TG: I don’t think it’s time for me to make any elaborate comments on this creative relationship - after all, it’s only my second session with Mr Eicher. (And the first CD we even recorded mostly on our own before he entered the process.) Still, it’s safe to say that working with him is both challenging and very rewarding.

I guess my approach to the “strong man” issue is like in most other fields of challenge; I believe in strength through solid mildness and creative synthesis instead of stubborn confrontation - unless confrontation is really needed, which of course it sometimes is but not as often as many people think. Anyway, fear is not a healthy basic mode in any relationship, and certainly not in a creative one. Playful energy, love for music, and an intense urge for saying something important that words can not express - sources like this should be what makes you strong as a musician, not some struggle for power…

Outro

My thanks go to Tord for taking the time to give such comprehensive and illuminating answers. Don't buy The Ground expecting Changing Places II. This is a new album which shares many of the great aspects of it's predecessor, but which then strikes out in it's own direction. Beautiful, moving, powerful, challenging. Add this one to your collection.

The Ground is reviewed in January's music reviews.